Hiren Ved Loves Bad News Big Money Is Made The Broadview

TITLE: Hiren Ved Loves Bad News? That’s Where the Big Money Is Made | The BroadView with Nikunj Dalmia CHANNEL: The BroadView DATE: ---TRANSCRIPT--- If I were to keep that as a bedrock of my core portfolio, broadly speaking there would be three four areas that I would look at. And that’s where I would as one of my two core picks on the financials but non-lending side. And how should we put the cherry on the top? What should we call that? Well, the multibagger? But I would pick three at this point in time. The multibaggers. You know, they’ve been around for many years, but I think we are at an inflection point today. I think the best bet to to date has been Bajaj Finance. At what price did you buy? Who remember that I bought it at a market cap of 1,400 crores. You say that again. 1,400 crores. How do you think Rakesh Junjunwala, our common mentor, would have described the market cap? TV ke aadhe bangar bech ke le lo. You love that language, right? That’s where the big opportunities come.

In the business of investing, everyone gets the same set of ingredients. The same macro, the same set of earnings report, and the same underlying valuations. But the dish always works when there is a great chef. And that also holds true for the world of investing. Great investors are those who are able to filter the noise, follow a thought process, and more importantly, they follow a simple principle. Hiren Ved has a glorious career. He has spent nearly 30 years managing other people’s money. And what has really differentiated Hiren from other investors is he’s an original thinker, and he follows a thought process which is really centered around risk management and common sense.

So, the lay of the land, or if I would say the setup on the table is very simple. What is bothering everybody is oil. Yes. Flows. Yeah. And the impact of onyx. This is well documented. This is the same set of macro which are available to everybody. Yes. But the master investor in you, I’m sure, is focusing on something else. And I’m going to draw it up. Which is I’m trying to arrange it. Price.

So, my question to you is, having seen so many ups and downs in the market, how much of the bad news war, oil, forex, flows is in the price? I think pretty much. Uh You know, Nikunj, usually uh by and large, if you look at uh events which spring as a surprise, negative events which spring as a surprise. Most of the damage gets done in the first few days of the event occurring. And uh I think in a matter of few weeks we have lost almost 2,500 plus points on the Nifty. Uh and therefore, can there be a more downside? Probably yes. But would I say 80-90% is it in the price? I think so.

I’ll go back to price again. Just because stocks are down, are they looking attractive? Or when you say do they looking attractive, it’s underplay between underlying ticker price and the earnings outlook and valuations. So, uh it’s a little bit complex because uh the answer to that will depend on how long and how high will oil prices remain. If this is just a matter of a few weeks, my sense is that it should not have a significant impact on earnings. But if this war was to draw into couple of weeks or even months, then I do believe that it’s not all in the price because it could impact margins of companies. We’ve seen this in 2022 when the Russia-Ukraine war broke out and oil prices rallied. With that, all commodities rallied. That put pressure on margins and for about two to three quarters, earnings got impacted. So, there is always an adjustment time before earnings can catch up. So, yes, it’s in the price, but that’s with the big assumption that things should get back to normal hopefully by the end of this month.

The other item on the table was flows. And if the valuations are looking better, if your read of the earning cycle is that things are going to be changing for better and what was excess has been weeded out, why is that global investors are not able to fathom that? Because the same set of data, it’s the same level of market and it is the same earning cycle which they have to predict. While one side, good old Hiren Ved and some smart fund managers are bullish, uh FIIs are selling as if there is no tomorrow.

So, Nikunj, I think the FII behavior in the recent past is less to do only with India and more to do with the attractiveness or I would say the near to medium-term attractiveness of other markets and that is largely being driven by AI. And if you look at it, I think the perception is that today uh AI is likely to drive massive productivity. Today outside of AI, there is no great capex happening in the US. But what is driving the US markets and the sentiment is that AI is the next big thing. And to be fair, I think we did see uh earning slowdown in India in ‘24, ‘25 because of the elections. And I believe we will get back to a better earnings picture. But now that has got a little bit muddled because of what is happening today. And as I said if this is a short-lived phenomena I still believe earnings can grow in about mid-teens for the Nifty.

Uh The other problem with FIIs is that they possibly own large stakes in two sectors which haven’t really done that great. One is banks. I mean, HDFC Bank after 5 years is still at the same price level where it was. And IT services which now seems to have or at least the perception is that uh uh there will be deflation in their growth because of AI. So, what you hold is not doing well. And the relative attractiveness of growth in other markets is far better. And therefore, I think that the combination of that has meant that India probably was the worst performing market last year.

Suren, you are a stock picker at heart. And for any stock picker, it is important to talk long term and talk about the construct of your thought process. Yes. You know it better than anyone else that uh you have to be on the right side of the change. Big gains are made when you’re betting on future trends rather than past growth. Correct. Uh so, let’s call this as India of 2030. Okay. What could India be in 2030? And if you have to make a core portfolio or a model portfolio for our viewers with a 5-year view, let’s start building it. You talked about building uh castles in the air. We’ll try and build up a model portfolio with some building blocks. First, the core, which is the base. This is what they mean. What should be the mean of the portfolio for next 5 years according to you?

Um I would think that these are companies where the external opportunity is significantly large. More importantly, the management teams are executing superbly well. And are best suited to handle any kind of disruption. Uh if I were to keep that as a bedrock of my core portfolio, um broadly speaking, there would be three, four areas that I would look at. One is that um you know I I like the whole uh thesis of Indians moving away from savings to being investors. And that’s where I would put BSE and HDFC AMC as one of my two core picks on the financials but non-lending side. On lending, it’s back to my favorite Bajaj Auto Finance or Bajaj Finance. Um I think they are way ahead of everybody. They’ve already demonstrated how they are using AI to build competitiveness in their business. I like premium consumption. That’s where United Spirits would come in. Um I like R&D and core manufacturing capabilities, which is where Divi’s would come in. And I think we are in the era of AI and energy where I think power will be a very critical resource. And that’s where I would bring in Hitachi and ABB, which actually benefit from uh the capex that will happen in power transmission because of data centers, because of renewable energy, automation, robotics.

So, I think these would be the elements of my core portfolio. How much would you would you allocate to this core of the total portfolio? At least 50%. So, 50% of your core portfolio broadly would be in these eight to 10 stocks. Yes. So, that would be a combination of uh lenders, largely banks, exchanges and uh AMCs, uh United Spirits in consumption. Uh, and Hitachi and ABB in power.

Okay. Let’s move to the next part. Fund manager would say alpha. I like to call them as differentiated ideas. Okay. High growth companies. You’ve been a big proponent of high growth companies. What would you buy in your alpha portfolio? I think just like I bet on BSC in my core portfolio, I think from a growth perspective we like MCX. I think commodity trading is yet in its very early stages of growth. Uh, largely currently most of the volumes was in the futures, but now options are coming up. Most of the participants were corporates and retail investors who were trading. I believe that institutions and FPIs will become a large part of the ecosystem. So, I expect multiple years of solid growth.

Uh, I like two new age companies or platforms as they call it. One obviously is Eternal or Zomato. Uh, I think to my mind it’s the fastest entry in the Nifty. Uh, large dam and high class execution. Um, so I would bet on him. Uh, I would bet on Eternal. The other one that I like is CarTrade. It’s a company which is not very well understood, but I think has solid moats. Uh, and they own a two great classified properties in the automotive industry which is CarWale and BikeWale. And they also own a transaction platform called OLX where you essentially sell second-hand stuff from mobiles to furniture and so on and so forth. And what I like about CarTrade and especially the founder is that he’s a great mixture of a new age entrepreneur and a tight Marwari when it comes to cash flows. It’s a killer combination. I did say HDFC AMC, but I think I prove AMC I would buy as a growth stock.

In consumption, I like Ethos. I think luxury retailing in India is still in its infancy and has many many years to go. And then there is a very unique It’s actually a very old car OEM, but very little talked about, but has some great engineering capabilities and has some fantastic products that they’ve developed recently. And that is Force Motors. A company that is hardly owned institutionally. There is no research on the company. The management doesn’t speak. So you have to do all your work by yourself. Um this I would put as my growth portfolio.

And how should we put the cherry on the top? What should we call that? Well, the multibagger. I I I was waiting for that term. I was hoping you would say it, but now that you’ve said the multibaggers, I’ll say it again. The multibaggers. In multibaggers, I would you know, you have These have to be areas where I think the runway of growth is very very explosive, right? And while there are quite a few stocks, but I would pick three at this point in time. Uh one is Centum Electronics. Uh you know, they’ve been around for many years, but I think we are at an inflection point today where electronics manufacturing and their supply into defense, their supply into space. And I believe that there is a huge opportunity for semiconductor manufacturing in this country.

I like Dynamatics. You know about it. We’ve been owning it for many years. I think the defense and aerospace and specially the aerospace global supply chains are coming to India in a very big way because India is now probably one of the most significant buyers of commercial aircraft and defense aircraft. So, I see a huge opportunity there. And then I have a very small uh software company which has some great skills in silicon design in satellite communication in devices on the automotive side. Very very specialized capabilities. Um at one point in time they were one of the key players when it came to telecom software, but over the years they acquired other skills and they are now leveraging that skills. And again, I think most of these companies actually you will see have been around for a long time, but they have not grown all these three companies. I just believe that they have retained their core capabilities and skills. They were just waiting for the right inflection point and I think the external environment is providing that that inflection point. So, I think this would be my multibaggers.

I still have one pick left. Okay. The top. So, the contrabats or the ugly ducklings or the fallen angels, whichever way you want to call it. I’ll name two. One is very topical in the current context, which is actually L&T. Uh the stocks corrected very substantially because of what is happening in the Middle East. Uh but I think that uh they have great capabilities and I think once the war is over and done with, I think there will be huge opportunity to rebuild the Middle East and that’s where I think the you know, the the strength and the business will bounce back. But more importantly, L&T is also modernizing itself and few years ago they took a strategic call of uh putting their bets on software. Now, they’re putting their bets on the next growth areas with his data centers, uh shipbuilding, defense. So, I think this is a great entry point given what has happened. The stocks corrected substantially. So, I would use this as a contra bet in the current environment.

And the second is again a company that’s been around for a long time, not very it’s kind of hated because it’s not been very consistent and that is Wockhardt. And I like it because sometimes product trumps everything. And I think what has happened in the world is that everybody in the world stopped doing R&D on infectious diseases. And we as humans having uh developed a resistance to antibiotics, normal antibiotics, I think there is room for some very unique, complex antibiotic products uh which can solve a lot of problems for the world. And I think Wockhardt has a couple of those products which are in their pipeline and have shown very positive results. Um I think if finally this product gets US FDA approval, uh the market is huge. And this can actually change the entire complexion of this company.

Again, I must say uh specially when it comes to the contrabets and the multibaggers, uh there’s always a probability that things may not work out. But that’s what all the investment uh game is all about. Um so I think uh viewers must do their own research. All of the stocks that I talked about, uh we own it uh in our client portfolios uh and in the firm and personally. So, with full disclosure, uh this is just indicative of my current thought process. Things could change tomorrow. And these are not recommendations and clients should do their own research.

Thank you for that, I mean that disclosure I guess is very, very crucial. So, I mean we’ve constructed a portfolio, but while constructing the portfolio, what do you mind for the projected returns? Because it’s a combination of growth, value, contra, as well as core. Uh can this kind of a portfolio combination in 3 to 5 years or 5 to 7 years, which is a new India portfolio, can it give a target return which could be in late teens, early 20s, or maybe more? I know this is, I I tough to quantify, but if I assume that we size our bets well and uh a little bit of luck is on our side. I think a portfolio like this could possibly return late teens. And if we are really lucky, uh even touch 20% plus kind of returns, which to me in these kind of markets is really phenomenal because we’ve seen that uh nominal GDP is now, you know, almost at 9 10%. And Nifty earnings have been struggling for a while now. Uh so if a portfolio can deliver late teens, I think it’s a great place to be in. But again, with full disclosure, uh you know, it’s it’s difficult to say what can happen. We live in an uncertain world. And we would require a lot of luck and elders’ blessings to get to that point.

Here and there are great companies which are great businesses, but yet they’ve not given returns. And I’m not looking at once upon a time in the last 5 years. HDFC Bank something you mentioned. I can throw it up with the Kotak Mahindra Bank. I can pull it up and perhaps throw in an HDFC Life. Uh I can talk about Shree Cement. These are great companies. Yeah. Growth is not a problem, but the returns have not been great. While constructing this portfolio, and I’ll be slightly more descriptive here, you have a combination of some expensive stocks. Yes. A lot of high-growth companies. Yes. By any yardstick, well, you would say AMC stocks are not cheap. Uh exchanges are expensive. And high-growth companies, well, they still prove they have a business model, but I don’t know how the pricing discovery will happen. Let’s talk about the price consideration.

So, Nikunj, very interesting you mentioned and you know, one of the things that I’ve learned in markets uh is to ask a question why. Right? Why is it that great companies like HDFC Bank or Kotak or some of the names that you mentioned not delivered returns despite a lot of investors being very bullish about them? I think that uh you know, we believe that markets are discounting the future growth. Right? Many of these companies uh were stellar examples. They grew in an era where consistent execution, superior execution uh and solid growth were not very easy to come by. And hence uh money gravitated towards those stocks and those stocks got the kind of valuations that they got. And they were well deserved.

I think what has changed is that today I see that the choice of companies who were not only is growth superior and probably longer, but you also have seen the birth of many management teams and entrepreneurs who are now executing as well or better. Right? I mean, Bajaj is a classic example that uh despite the two banks, both ICICI, HDFC, ICICI much later, but HDFC earlier, being in the consumer lending business, but Bajaj was able to grow, innovate, uh and generate a very attractive return on capital and with high growth rates. And the markets rewarded those companies.

And I’ve realized that uh we are over the last few years, we are seeing far more disruption to business models today than in the past. And on if the market is not convinced that you can manage or adapt to that disruption, and if your growth is likely your future growth is likely to slow down, then we’ve seen a steady derating in many of those companies. So, while you did mention that some of the stocks that I mentioned optically have a higher valuation than many of these great franchises, but I think what the market is telling you is that the future growth potential of these companies is higher than many of the blue chips of yesteryear. And that these management teams are also effectively executing very well.

Um So, markets are always looking for large opportunities, companies that can execute well and grow much faster than the average. And as the average has tended to go down, you know, mid-teen returns for Nifty was like a given. Now we’re are about barely reaching double digits. So growth will if there are companies which are growing consistently and executing well and have good business economics, the markets are willing to give it a slightly higher P. I think we should also not forget the fact that structurally in India as inflation has come down, interest rates have come down. That has also led to expansion of P multiples of this market. Coupled with the fact that we are now seeing a structural shift, structural consistent shift of flows, domestic savings into the equity markets which have held up valuations despite all the selling. So I think it is the combination of all three, lower interest rates and hence lower discounting consistent strong liquidity flows into the markets and a far bigger universe of companies that are growing faster as opposed to very few companies who consistently performed very well and therefore got a disproportionate benefit of higher valuations.

So to simplify it for our viewers, when interest rates are down cash flows will be strong. When cash flows are down, P multiples will go higher. And looking at the growth dynamics of India, the entrepreneurship engine or the options to invest or perhaps disruption, it is really causing a big churn. As a result, the Dada companies today are feeling the heat and the real youth companies are the ones which are gravitating with the high growth to put it very simply. Absolutely. I think there is a churn in the leadership that is happening. Earlier, the churn was much slow. Now the churn is much faster.

But here in Samudra manthan, there was one side nectar, one side there was poison. Yes. Who will lose out in this, gentlemen? There are always uh players who come as a flash in the pan, who bring a lot of promise, but then uh don’t execute well or misallocate capital. Uh I hate to take names, but I think just for the uh just to simplify things, right? I mean, let’s look at the EV revolution that happened. And you had a bunch of old existing players, and you had a bunch of new players, right? And one new player came as a shooting star, took 40-45% market share, and has never been able to execute, and has today almost lost half of that market share, and has gone even lower, right? While on the other hand, somebody like an Ather, who’s also a new player, came in and has consistently improved market share. And the incumbents, the two strong gorillas, which is TVS and Bajaj, have also stepped up. Though they were looking that they were late entrants, but I think uh they were able to adapt very quickly, uh and benefit.

So, I think that whenever there is a disruption, a few things happen. There is a new player, there are a set of new players that come in. Maybe one odd survive and thrive. Many crash and burn. Uh many incumbents get hurt, and uh either see a loss of growth or profitability. Very few adapt and move on. Uh and then there are many also-rans who came. I mean I don’t know at last count there were so many two-wheeler EV companies. We don’t even see them in the face of the earth. Some of them have gone belly up. Some of them are struggling with production. Some of them and the obvious one has diversified too much. It’s no longer EV. Correct. So, it’s execution which really matters. Correct. So, I think uh the Samudra manthan is well and on. Mhm. And there will be nectar and there will be poison.

But when you look back at your glorious career, market beating returns, you know, I’ve heard all kind of crazy combinations in last 30 years, go for global macro, go for algorithms, but you’ve kept it very simple. Buy a good company, let it compound. So, if you look at your glorious career of about 30 years now, almost 30 years now. 32. Which one would you call has been your biggest triumph? Well, again, I would say that it was in a way accidental. Uh and I think the best bet to to date has been Bajaj Finance. At what price did you buy it? I think there have been many splits and bonuses, but I do remember that I bought it at a market cap of 1,400 crores. Just say that again. 1,400 crores. The annual profit is 20,000 crores now. Yeah, in 2010, early 2010. And this is not once upon a time. Yeah. This is not like a family inheritance. 2010, right after the split, you bought Bajaj Finance and that’s barely 15 years. In 15 years, the market has cap has gone up from 1,400 crores to 6 and 1/2 lakh crores. Wow. You still own it? Yes. Can I say that’s been the biggest multibagger of your life? Absolutely.

But where is that regret? That you found the stock and you said, “Are you going to be stupid?” Uh I would say that I can’t claim that I was the in the stock. And I was still trying to juggle between a a good chemical company and we I did invest in Naveen. But I sold off pretty quickly, right? Um And I regret that I sold it early. I probably should have uh held it. Um But I think that’s another company which has executed phenomenally.

Hiren, what would you say has been one of your biggest contra decisions when you felt lonely, when you thought, “Okay, nobody is on my side, but it was my sheer investment checklist or conviction which in a sense uh you know, which in a sense convinced you to stay invested or buy that stock?” I would say um that was Varun Beverages. Okay. Right? When did you buy it? Uh we we bought it in 2015. Okay. Right? Uh I I I think late 2015, early 2016. I still remember uh I was invited to present at the SOAN conference. Yes. And VBL was my idea. And uh whomsoever that I would speak to said, “Are you the bottler?” Uh it’s a very capital-intensive business. And uh I had done a small comparison when I presented with some of the FMCG companies and people laughed at me, “How can you even compare a bottler to an FMCG company?” I think today it has a higher PE multiple than many FMCG companies have, right?

I think sometimes, as you say, the data is available to everybody. How you look at a business is very different. And I looked at the business not just as any other bottler, but if you go and travel the length and breadth of India, you will realize that even a small dhaba or a small outlet, uh you will have a Coke or a Pepsi there. But what it meant was that it was a very intricate uh distribution business, right? You You cannot build this overnight. Secondly, the founders have been in this business for decades. They were the ones who first started with Coke. And then when Coke went out of India, they were distributors and bottlers for Thums Up, Parle, and subsequently for Pepsi. Which means that they had it in their DNA. They understood this business very well. And this is a business which requires a huge amount of consumer understanding, logistics capability, distribution strength. And more importantly, what we realized was that a big global brand like Pepsi was their partner not just in India, but in every other country that they went. They were able to increase Pepsi’s market share, whether it was Sri Lanka or Nepal or Zimbabwe or India for that matter. When we invested, they uh you know, they controlled barely uh less than a quarter of Pepsi’s volumes. Today they have 96 97% of Pepsi’s volumes in India. That speaks a lot about their capability.

So that was one and and I think the other one was Paytm recently when it fell after the regulatory problems that it faced, but I was very to me Paytm was like what Colgate is to toothpaste, right? Paytm was to UPI or money and you know, obviously there were a lot of mixed feelings about uh uh Vijay Shekhar and whether Paytm will survive. But I thought that they had built a great business. More importantly, a great brand. Um and the customers resonated. So people would say Paytm card though. Right? Uh so it almost became a generic name for transfer of money. Um so that required a little bit of guts to buy when it really fell.

You know Hiren before we move to the last leg, I just want to put this on record that very you few companies actually move from unknown to unforgettable. And Hiren has mastered this art of really identifying some of those companies which have genuinely really pivoted to a different orbit. Bajaj Finance when it went public uh the market cap was 1500 crores. Yeah. Last year profit 20,000 crore. We’re talking about profit. That’s phenomenal. Paytm, one of the most powerful brands which have got created, I guess in last 10 years apart from D-Mart or Patanjali. And the foresight with which you were also able to identify some offer what 5560 rupees when the Yeah, less than 50 when Blinkit when they acquired Blinkit and I think investors who are just so pissed off with him and uh the stock got slammed very badly. You love bad news, right? Not always. Not always. As an investor, yes. Yeah, I mean, that’s where the big opportunities come.

And we started the show and this is not the last part of the show, so don’t go away. Is that good news and good price that rarely comes together? There is so much of storm in the world, but when that storm actually happens, that’s the time, you know, price dislocation happens and that’s the dislocation which Hiren is talking about. That’s the dislocation Buffett has spoken about. That’s the dislocation our common mentor Rakesh Jhunjhunwala always speaks about, which is that look, you got to wait time, but when the bad news is out, go all in. Correct. Especially when the risk reward is in your favor.

And you feel that in the current market for a long-term investor, I’m repeating it again, the risk reward is favorable. I think so. I genuinely think so. Uh so, if somebody’s investing with Alchemy Capital over a period of one cycle, what should they expect? One cycle. Higher than mid-teens, hopefully. Uh are you a firm believer of high risk, high return or it is going to be alpha but lower risk? I would say uh there is no returns if you don’t take risk, but it has to be controlled risk, right? So, I’m not going to take crazy risks. Uh I don’t shy away from taking risks, but I don’t want to bet the house. Uh people give their hard-earned money their uh generation of wealth that they have created uh not to fritter away. Yes, everybody wants higher returns, but uh they want to protect their capital and earn above average returns.

So, I’m not here to give you sky-high returns. If you want to do that, probably invest in an early startup or an early stage VC. Right? Where the odds can be significantly disproportionate. Um sometimes markets will give you chances, but not all the time. Uh so, I think that uh my idea is that I manage money for some of the most wealthy people. And I’ve realized one thing that they all want to earn returns. But before that, they want to protect what they’ve already earned. So, risk is the centerpiece in terms of fund management. Absolutely.

How do you think Rakesh Jhunjhunwala, a common mentor, would have described the market right now? That’s a great way of putting it, I think, because he would say like this only when he is confident about price and about the turn in the market. So, again, same point again and again, it’s important messaging. Yes, the headline and our mind space is right now all you know, jumbled with the war, but this shall also pass. Just like today, we don’t talk about COVID. Just like Ukraine-Russia is history right now. Who remembers 2008 GFC crisis and 9/11 happened once upon a time. This shall also pass.

But Hiren, you’ve been managing money with two brilliant partners. And this is a message from both your partners. Yes. Oh. Hiren has left a cushy job to become an entrepreneur and a partner in 1999. He has seen lots of ups and downs and has survived and has come as a winner. He’s a great team member. But tell him he’s a great stock picker, but he needs to learn how to sell also. True. What do you have to say about Ashwin by and Harsh by? No, I think they’ve been great partners, great supporters. I’ve learned a lot from both of them. Uh I think Ashwin by is a original thinker, lateral thinker, very well networked. Uh I don’t think there there are very few people who I would consider apart from R.J. and people like Radha Kishan Damani who really understand That’s fine. Uh who understand risk. Okay. Right. And can be brutally objective. Uh but I think that’s why the three of us who have very different capabilities uh complementary capabilities have stuck together for a quarter plus century. And can say proudly has built an institution like Alchemy. It wouldn’t have been possible if all of us uh didn’t help each other, guided each other. Uh more importantly, I am the recipient of that guidance and help, but it’s been a pleasure to be their partner.

But they you haven’t still answered their complaint. He needs to learn to sell also. I think it’s it’s it’s a valid complaint, right? Uh I would say that I’m getting better at that. Uh there is always scope to improve. And uh I never take serious advice lightly.

And then all I can say is that your journey from unknown to unforgettable has been absolutely incredible. I can say this on record that while many of us are looking for that next multi-bagger idea, you in your portfolio have many multi-bagger ideas. Your ability to understand markets, identify multi-baggers, and run marathon is quite extraordinary. For me, our relationship has been centered around another man, and which is mentoring. So, it’s just been a pleasure, and I think that is one relationship which has really compounded for me. And thank you very much for just being a friend and being there in life. Thank you so much, Nikunj. You’ve been very liberal with your praise, more than I deserve. I think a lot of it is people seen and unseen who have shaped my thinking, my behavior. Uh and obviously, without the the goodwill of God, and as Bhaiya used to say, the blessings of our parents, we wouldn’t be where we are today. Thank you.