The Curse Of Optionality Tim Ferriss On Experiments Risk And Freedom The Founder Mindset

TITLE: The Curse of Optionality: Tim Ferriss on Experiments, Risk, and Freedom | The Founder Mindset CHANNEL: Harvard Business School DATE: ---TRANSCRIPT--- I from the very beginning have been hyper-vigilant about minimizing losses. It is actually someone who is calculating risk at all the times and who isn’t paralyzed by that risk. Most things aren’t going to work out. In the world of building companies, nobody cares.

This is the Founder Mindset with Reza Satchu.

Every year at Harvard Business School, hundreds of students compete to gain entrance into my class, one of the most popular courses on campus, The Founder Mindset. For those who make the cut, I take them on a journey challenging them to take risks, make commitments, and most importantly, learn judgment. One of the most popular aspects of the course are the guests we bring in, outstanding entrepreneurs who’ve had a truly profound impact on the world. Now, I’m sharing my conversations with some of these founders on our show. I’m Reza Satchu and this is the Founder Mindset.

What does it take to be a founder? Tim Ferriss turned experimentation into a competitive advantage, authoring multiple number one New York Times bestsellers, launching one of the world’s most influential podcasts, and investing early in companies like Uber, Facebook, Shopify, and Duolingo. His playbook isn’t about reckless bets. It’s about calibrated risk, smart experiments, and learning faster than the competition.

Tim Ferriss, welcome to the Founder Mindset.

Thanks for having me.

So, most people, they look at you and they think, “Wow, what a remarkable story. How many things you’ve done. You must take so much risk and therefore there’s some combination of risk management or luck that has allowed you to do all of these things very well. What’s your reaction to that?

There’s certainly a luck component, uh but I I get a bit frustrated with anyone who attributes all of their outcomes to hard work or 100% to luck. I mean, I think it’s rarely 100% one or the other. There’s a luck factor. I would say on the risk side, I from the very beginning, coming from a family without a ton of money where money was always an issue, have been hyper-vigilant about minimizing losses. I really don’t view myself as a risk-taker.

It’s such a remarkable thing because most people would look at your life and they’d say this fellow has done so many things that are different that he must have sought a tremendous amount of risk. And so this concept that this is not you jumping off a cliff in the shark-infested waters in the middle of a hurricane. It is not that. It is actually someone who is calculating risk at all the times and who isn’t paralyzed by that risk.

Yeah, and I think I’ve by luck, by certainly by the grace of timing in some cases, benefited from the angel investing. When you are trying to think systematically about investing, you have to interrogate your own thinking and be willing to change your own thinking. Recognize what type of bets are recoverable versus irrecoverable. So I think the if anything, and maybe this would be unexpected, but the angel investing has made me more bold in running more experiments. I just realized like most things aren’t going to work out, but you don’t need to get a lot of things right to have an amazing life and build an amazing business.

One of the things around risk calibration is ultimately what you’re trying to figure out is, okay, what’s my downside and what’s my upside. Now, human psychology is such that people tend to overestimate their downside. And so one of these you talk about is we need to define our fears, okay, as opposed to what we, you know, what everyone here at Harvard Business School is doing is which is defining their goals, okay? Tell me why the concept of fi- of defining your fears is so important to actually calibrating risk.

Yeah, so the fear setting exercise, which you’re describing, people can find it for free online. It was important to me personally because I grew up in a family with all sorts of mental health challenges, addiction, overdoses, depression, you name it. And struggled with a lot of that myself, and I would get into these ruminative ruminative loops that catastrophized. So, to try to turn down the volume on that, came to fear setting through stoic philosophy, and found it incredibly helpful just for peace of mind.

Was the concept that once you define your fear, you were able to realize that you could manage through it?

Yeah. Yeah, but it’s a lot like goal setting, right? You want like specific, measurable, realistic, timeline, blah blah blah. It’s applying the same thing to what could be like a nebulous cloud of concerns and anxiety. And I would imagine if you were to ask a lot of the students in your sections, you know, what are your fears, do this exercise, they might come up blank. But if I were to say, what’s the thing that you would do if you knew you could not fail, right? What would that be? And it doesn’t have to be from the menu of options that’s coming straight out of the class. It could be anything. Maybe it’s being a screenwriter, who the hell knows. Like, what is that thing? And then, since you’re not already committed to that, you’ve told yourself I can’t do that for some set of reasons. So, let’s interrogate those reasons.

So, is that the assumption So, when you explore these new things, is that how you’re approaching it?

Yeah, it is.

You decided you want to be a tango dancer. There’s obviously risk that that’s not going to happen. Yeah, sure.

Okay. But your definition is something different.

Yeah, I mean, the risk for me is largely, I mean, I can expand on this, but the the probability of an irreversible negative outcome. And most of the risk, I think that students at a place like HBS would fear is some type of reputational hit, being judged by others.

Well, they’re looking left and right.

Right. And the fact of the matter is most people aren’t thinking about you at all. They’re thinking about themselves anyway. Understanding that theoretically is very different from screwing around at Tango and doing that for 6 months and then doing this, that, and the other thing and realizing very few things matter. And if they don’t work out, that’s fine. You just keep experimenting. And as long as you have engineered for yourself a timeline, so that you know when you will decide if this is pass/fail, and if it’s fail, move on to the next thing. As long as you’ve done that, and you don’t keep it open-ended, I think it’s very hard to fail in the long term. If you are choosing your projects for maximizing learning and developing relationships that transcend that given project, your startup, whatever, it’s I just think it’s really it’s a lot harder to lose long-term than people realize.

So, it must be true that you have confidence in your ability to see things that others don’t see.

I have confidence in my ability to wade into waters that I think are plausibly interesting. Okay. Without worrying too much about it.

Have a phrase which is sort of served me well in my founder journey, which is if in doubt, act. Now, what people think that means, they sort of say, “Well, that’s nonsense. I mean, you don’t know what to do, and you’re just going to make an action?” No, no, no. What most people do is when they’re in doubt, they just stay the course, but they don’t make an active decision to stay the course, right? They’re sort of like deer in headlights. So, my point is you may want to stay the course, but you’re making an active decision in your mind I’m staying the course, so I can test my judgment, okay? What are the frameworks that you have in place to enable you to make strong rapid decisions under uncertainty that are risk calibrated, but that need to be done timely?

Yeah, I would say it’s it’s more a rule or policy than a framework, but for me the cognitive load of having lots of pending decisions is worse than making some mistakes. Unless this is a clear one-way door, meaning irreversible, that’s very very It’s going to be very expensive {slash} punishing if it’s a problem. Just make a decision, right? I don’t need to think about where I’m going to sit on a flight for very long, right? I don’t need to think about hotel. Worst case, it’s a crappy hotel and I can’t sleep. That’s fine. Like, I’ll get over it.

It saves time for the things that matter.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And also, I mean, this is true with it applies I I keep bringing up the Angel investing because I think it’s a microcosm of the macro in the sense that how you make decisions around like bet size, right? So, if I’m making very big bets for me then I’m almost certainly going to take longer to make those decisions, but if I’ve made a decision in advance, like I’ve made a decision that in a certain area, there’s no way that I can predict who’s going to be the winner, so I’m just going to spray and pray and it’s going to be a 25K 50K. It’s not worth me doing four calls with that founder. Right? It’s like, unless there are clear disqualifiers Right. I should just get some chips on the table. And you can do that with a lot of categories of decisions.

Yeah. Well, it’s usually because what you’re arguing for is some set of decisions, you just make them because you’re trying to save time, but also it strikes me that what you’re also saying is there’s there’s value to making decisions.

Yeah, there’s value to making decisions. Uh where I would take a step further as for as much as possible in my life, and I do see this across hundreds of people I’ve interviewed. The more you can make default and automatic, the better. So, I could date intermittent fasting, right? And we’re both doing that. One, the health around it is so so positive. But two, it’s just a set of rules that are very easy to follow.

Yep.

So, I don’t have to think about it that much. It’s the simplicity of that that works.

Right. And, you know, Tony Robbins has said that complexity is the enemy of execution.

I I think that’s really, really true. Because if you look at what I try to do, at least with the books, and I do this with the podcast, too, but I’m thinking about practical behavioral change.

One thing you talked about where I think we have a disconnect is you talk about how valuable options are to you, and okay? Now, of course, every option has a value, no question, okay? I’ll take the other side of it and say that we live in a society where generally speaking, people overvalue options and undervalue commitments.

Yeah. Okay? I would agree with that.

And so, what you see is a decline in marriage, a decline in home ownership, a decline in people going to church. And certainly at HBS, where I see it most acutely, is in them making decisions around their career paths that are completely inconsistent with the impact that they want to have and the learning that they want to have, but it enables them to preserve all options.

Yep. Okay? And so, I call it the curse of optionality. And so, effectively, you never actually see what you’re capable of when you commit, okay? So, my argument is commitment’s actually a superpower, not a sacrifice. And yes, by definition, commitment means you are cutting off some options, okay? But I’m curious whether that resonates with you, and how do you think about that in terms of, you know, maximizing options?

Yeah, I think they’re I think they’re totally compatible. There is definitely, and I do think this is a partially product of my childhood and feeling trapped in certain ways and dealing with a bunch of horrible stuff that I was I was like I don’t like the feeling of being trapped. So, having optionality is something that gives me peace of mind. But, for me optionality does not mean anything and everything for undefined periods of time. And even if I am, for instance, looking for feedback with split testing on say the title and subtitle of the 4-Hour Workweek. All right, I tested it through Google AdWords, did all this stuff in bookstores with like a clicker to determine what cover I picked up more than others. But, here’s the takeaway from that is I I had already decided on six to 10 titles and subtitles that I felt good about and then it was choosing among those six to 10. I was not going into the ether and asking what should I do.

So, you had a frame of reference.

I had a frame of reference, yeah. Yeah, and then also, you can actually run a lot of experiments in parallel, so you don’t have to have any super-imposed mutual exclusivity where it’s like, “Okay, I’m only going to do this startup for X period of time and then if it doesn’t work, then I’m going to try my hand at writing.” Like one of your students came to you with this dilemma. And I was like, “Well, based on what you’re telling me about the scope of the writing, it sounds like something you could do in the evenings and on the weekend. So, you can do both. I mean, you’re going to really have to figure out self-care cuz you’ll be burning the candle at both ends, but if you’re signing up for this entrepreneurial journey, I mean, you’re kind of signing up for burning the candle at both ends no matter what. So, you can run those things in parallel. But, if there’s no through-line, I think you have a problem. All right, so if you have true north, which for me would be learning skills, developing relationships with the assumption that even if something fails, per se, like The 4-Hour Chef, my third book, was boycotted by just about everybody cuz it came out through Amazon Publishing and it scared the [ __ ] out of everybody in the publishing world. The team I worked with on that, Houghton Mifflin, HMH, I ended up working with for my next two books.

Well, this is your point around the cost of it’s not irreversible failure. Meaning what happens in these situations is even when you fail, you learn a fair amount. You have a commitment to a mindset. How do you think you’re able to not just see things differently, but to trust the process with a mindset? And is it really around the experimentation?

Uh I think that’s part of it, but I can try to flush it out. So, I would say also I need to give credit to uh teacher of mine actually taught at HBS for a long time named Ed Shaw.

Yes. He then He was a Princeton He was a Princeton for high-tech entrepreneurship, ELE 491. I still have all my notes. It’s good to see that a teacher can still have long-term impact.

Yeah, I’m still in touch with that. And he I think modeled for me. He was the first person I came across in real life who on some level was an exemplar of what I wanted to do. So, former congressman for Silicon Valley, former competitive uh figure skating athlete, uh ended up teaching computer science at Stanford because no one else I think somebody had bailed last minute and he’s like, “Sure, I’ll try to teach this thing called computer science way back in the day.” He’s taken a a number of companies public, focused on teaching, and continues to do all these different things.

So, tons of learning. And he wasn’t a specialist who can be top 1% one domain.

If you’re in the top 25% of two things that are rarely combined, and you put those together, could be computer science plus lottery, it could be who knows. Suddenly, you can be the one person who is the go-to source for a very, very narrow specialty.

So, that’s a keen insight. So, for you, the idea that you could be good at multiple things felt like a life better lived than being excellent at one thing.

I think it’s a safer and more competitively uh advantageous approach for most people. If you want to try to be in the NBA and go up against LeBron James, like good luck. I mean, it’s very few people who are going to be able to do that. If you want to be the top 1% in concert cello players or the top 1% in fill in the blank any one thing. It’s incredibly difficult to, I think, have the company building potential or the impact possibility that you can have by combining, say, being in the top 25% of two things that are rarely combined.

By putting those together, I guess what you’re arguing is effectively you’re in the top 1% of whatever those two things are.

And also for me, if you look at my chronology, this is a way of getting to your question. It might look like I’m hopping around a lot, and I expose I am, but it’s not because I just get bored and then look for the next thing. It’s often because I feel like I started in the blue ocean where uh maybe I could count cards with a like single deck blackjack table. And then suddenly it gets really crowded, and all of the sudden that strategy doesn’t work, right? The deck is stacked against me, and that at that point I’m like, I don’t I don’t uh fetishize hard games. Yeah. I like easy games.

Yeah, sure. Why not? So you think about blue I mean, you have found blue oceans Yeah. in the past. What are the next sort of Where do we see blue oceans going forward?

Oh, boy. It’s really personal. Uh I think there are blue oceans everywhere. Like for instance, I think that few years ago everything had Web3 in its deck if it was a startup. And then for a while it was VR. Then there was AR. Now it’s AI. Like everybody sprinkles a little pixie dust of AI in their deck and the valuations go immediately up.

Yeah, and things are completely bananas.

So, I would say it’s not chasing that for me. I mean, I placed a few bets in the in the sector, but I look for things that once were sexy that are no longer sexy, which is why I started building my email list 10 years ago or whatever it was when everyone was like, “Email’s dead.” Right. I was like, “I don’t think so.” Like, email’s dead until people have to get a job. And then email’s alive and well. So, I think you can excavate and reinvigorate the old in addition to looking for the new. I think there’s going to be a lot of pushback to digital overwhelm. And I’m curious what forms that’ll take.

Like, how might you bet on that? If I think about for you what the next 10 years looks like, okay? Sort of what would be fun, impactful, where are you going to lean into your whatever, you know, your set of superpowers that you have. And what are we solving for? What does that look like?

I’m not totally sure. Uh I’m in part, and maybe this is a cop out, but like whenever I feel like I have a reliable five-year plan, I feel like to have such a plan I want to change it. Well, I feel like to have something that I feel I could execute perfectly, I’m operating so well within my sphere of comfort that I’m just not aiming high enough.

But I would say Because what you’re minimizing is what you might learn in that five-year journey, which might actually change.

Yeah. And things I mean, the conditions change very quickly, too. So, uh I would say something that I’ve been thinking a lot about, and that’s part of the reason I came in yesterday and had a dinner with a bunch of biotech folks, is how I might use my audience now that the technology is available for this to do distributed scientific studies.

Yeah, that’s very interesting. So, how could I do that? I would need to obviously I’d need to figure out how to shield myself in the hyper litigious world of the United States, but

this is this sort of around the longevity trend or just broadly speaking?

Could be just about anything. So, I mean, for instance, if I wanted to take a plausible vagus nerve stimulator that could ostensibly have these various effects. Okay. Well, including say boosting HRV, heart rate variability. Well, could I give people instructions for how to assemble this thing? This is where I have to cover my ass in the US. Then ship them an Aura ring or a Whoop band, something like that. And have a potentially, this is available now, like an at-home self blood draw kit. I just did this the other week. I’d never seen it It’s remarkable. You just stick it on your shoulder and drain it into a vial and then you’ve got your sample. And held people accountable, so it wasn’t it’s we’re using quantifiable metrics instead of self-reporting. And it’s highly customized potentially.

Yeah, you could really with enough with an N that is large enough, if you have enough people participating, like you could potentially parse some really really interesting signals from that.

So, and that’s the kind of thing that it’s like if I went to go through academic channels for that, which I’ve done for 10 plus years, 15 years, it takes forever.

We do your leveraging potentially your listeners.

Yeah, yeah, and there are good reasons why it takes a long time to do certain things, like IRB and human ethics and all of that. I get it. But I’m not giving anyone like the next thalidomide. Like I we’d be dealing with something that has pretty good side effect profile. And uh one of the biggest challenges for any scientific study is subject recruitment. You could they might recruit 20 people and honestly it’ll take them a year and a half to do it. But I can do that in minutes. I also recognize the limitations of something like I’m describing, right? Very hard to pursue or control, blah, blah, blah. But, correlations, if they’re strong enough, still, like smoking and cancer as an example, can be informing.

In some ways, you’re trying to simplify your life, but you’re also trying to do hard things.

Yeah, this one I would like to do because if I can do it, it provides, and this is where I get the most payoff, maybe, is doing something that then inspires other people to try different things. So, if I could do that, and maybe leads to a publication, where it’s I’d be pretty nice to be the co-author of study. I’ve never done that. And I would want other people with audiences to start to think about. It’s like, okay, let’s read about cystic fibrosis. Let’s read about this. Let’s read about Genzyme. Let’s study a couple of case studies, so you understand what you could do with your audience besides shilling the latest schlocky. Like, you could actually have a meaningful impact, have a huge impact. Right, because you could recruit very specific demographic, psychographics, profiles, and to do that through normal academic channels is very, very difficult.

Okay, so this is a pretty exciting initiative. I mean, if this is something where I could imagine, you know, I have a thesis that most people want to live a life of impact, where they’re having a positive impact on the people they care about, and that can be as broad as the world. Does that resonate with you?

Uh yeah, it resonates. It definitely resonates. I mean, I would say that if I can leave the world, hopefully I’ll maybe a handful of people better off than they were beforehand, great. I just like, how many people at all of Harvard can tell me, you know, Alexander the Great’s full name?

Yeah, right. Probably two or three. Yeah.

So, the greatest conqueror the world has ever known. So, I don’t have any I don’t harbor any illusions or delusions of having people remember my name.

Well, I think this also speaks to your point where it probably frees you from the shackles of thinking about what everyone is thinking about.

Yeah. It does that and also to give credit where credit is due. I think about this a lot. You know, Seth Godin I have tremendous respect for. He said it’s in effect it’s easy to hide behind the big. All right, like solve world hunger. Have an impact a billion people, whatever it might be. But he said you can’t hide behind the small. So if it’s like okay, you want to impact a billion people, go out next week and impact 10 people and tell me exactly what you did. So I tend to maybe assume’s not the right word, but in my experience like if you start small and that allows you to go from to bias towards action as opposed to just patting yourself on the back for these big grand dreams. Then it’s like Jane Goodall didn’t start out as Jane Goodall. She spent decades in

Yeah, like in the field doing stuff that nobody ever [ __ ] about.

If you are able to prove something out on a smaller scale I feel like you can very often push that into some type of scale. Feel free to think big, but act small this week.

Well, look, I think there’s no question that schools like Harvard everyone has big dreams. And to your point, there’s often a disconnect between their actions. And you know, the problem with life what happens is a lot of people see it as sort of a series of building blocks. They’re like okay, well, if I make this amount of money or if I achieve this set of career, if I do this, then I’ll get to that phase where I’ll impact tons of people. And it’s frankly to your point it’s much easier to do that along way. The probability of success and that you’ll do it with more is much greater if you do it along the way.

Yeah, I also think that it’s easy to imagine that you yourself making a decision right now will be the same you yourself in 5 years and that’s rarely the case. So for instance, I also think there’s safety masquerading as preserving optionality and I mean I know this will be right in your wheelhouse, but if people are going to imagine me consulting or I’ve been getting there like, I’m going to get this breadth of experience around multiple sectors. I don’t know. Well, they definitely convinced themselves. And after four or five years, I’m going to start my startup. I have seen that happen exactly zero times.

Yes. Well, so I’ve heard that yeah, a thousand times and I’ve seen it about the same number of times. Because the you five years later is going to have like a Porsche gathering dust. You’re going to be keeping up with the Joneses or vacationing in Ibiza or whatever non-second Second home, whatever it is. It’s like And suddenly

Yes. just to feed this monster that you’ve created and stay in the esteem of your colleagues.

No, it’s Are you a trap? Are you just Yeah, are you going to start your like bakery then? I don’t think so. Yeah, it’s just a

So, what advice would you give the students you met today? They are here at Harvard and suddenly what they’re seeing is the world is changing pretty dramatically. The jobs that they thought were available to them are declining. Even, you know, the consulting jobs, private equity is a far more institutionalized, less interesting business than it was 20 years ago. Um the number of people going into banking is going down. And of course, you’ve got this sort of, you know, AI that is apparently going to change everything and we’re trying to solve for hopefully this one trait called judgment, okay, which hopefully is the differentiator for human beings. So, given these sort of seismic shifts, which both may create opportunity and turmoil, what would be the advice that you would give to these students?

Yeah, and look, I don’t come off as like a cantankerous ass um cuz I guess I’m pretty salty, but I would say a few things. And this is speaking of someone who has a lot of friends who went to very good business schools and so on. That in the world of building companies nobody cares uh about your business degree and if you behave and interact with people as if you are entitled to something you’re going to have a very hard slog of things. So, on the other hand, if you take what you’ve learned here and you use that as the payoff and then are willing, I think, to do what a lot of people are not willing to do. And this extends outside of HBS, too. I think that if you are willing to really have hat in hand and do menial stuff, and yet you still have this fancy degree, people are going to pay attention.

Right. If you fit the Well, they’ll pay attention precisely cuz it’s so differentiated.

Exactly. Right. Whereas if you fit the image that most people have, no offense, of like an HBS grad, you’re done.

What you’re precisely saying is that at the core, a founder has to think differently, has to be different. In order to go operate in the extraordinary world, you need to be different. And so, the idea here is what you got to present and do things Yeah. that are different.

Yeah, totally. And also, I would say, it’s like you can read all the the books on boxing or soccer that you want. You could be a PhD in soccer, but until you get out on the field, you’re going to realize it’s a different thing. And so, you got to get out there and take your lumps. Uh and it doesn’t have to be just this march of misery. I mean, like there’s a lot that you can enjoy along the way. Uh but I feel like if you do the unexpected, which could be, right, starting a podcast in 2014 or whatever. By the way, a lot of people told me it’s too late, that ship has sailed. Yeah, a lot of people who had podcasts were like, “Ah, it’s too crowded.”

Huh.

Mark, I was in 2014. But it could be doing something like that. It could also just be doing what people do not expect, which might be they’re like, “Ah, this guy’s going to be a pompous know-it-all.” And you’re just like, I’ll get the coffee. Yeah, right.

I’ll do this. He’s like, clean the shoes, whatever.

Yeah. What I’ve seen amongst founders, at least, is like intelligence is table stakes. It’s like reliability, rolling up your sleeves, no job too big or too small. And if you just do what people would not expect in a positive sense, you can really squeeze a lot out of what you learned at a place like HBS. Because like the lessons are good, but you still got to get on the field.

Correct. You know, exactly. It’s the opposite of what you think, which is you’re nowhere. You got to go back to the bottom and actually do the work.

Another piece of advice I’d give to students, and this is advice that I give to myself. I don’t give other people advice that I wouldn’t or haven’t given myself. And advice is like typically that, right? Everybody’s different, but I’m suspicious whenever there’s too much of a consensus about anything.

Hence your point, go do weird things.

Go do weird things. Yeah, like especially now, it’s not going to get easier unless you train the muscle of doing that and realize you realize that if you fall through the ice or one leg goes through the ice, you can get back out. You’ll figure it out. But, you know, after 4 years at McKinsey, are you going to be more or less inclined to take some hairbrained risk? Less. By far. So, there’s certain types of weirdness that if you embrace early, develop, cultivate the habit of exploring those strange corners, which is like I mean, I define weirdness It’s interesting When I hear you say weirdness, it’s almost like be curious, right? Just be curious about the things that seem unusual to others.

Yeah, be curious and also like it’s okay to have high conviction in yourself. You got to test that. Uh but it’s like if you can beat your head against a wall trying to push forward a bad or mediocre idea because you view yourself as a contrarian. And everyone tells you it’s not going to work. And you’ve read all the amazing stories of these founders who built multi-million dollar companies after everyone said Just because people are saying no, does not mean your idea is good. Right? So, if you label yourself a contrarian, that’s very dangerous because actually what you’re saying is I’m a conformist, but I’m just going to do the opposite.

You know what, Tim? So, what I’d say to you, I’m very grateful for you coming here. And I think that part of that gratitude comes from if I define your life, it’s something I try to inspire my students, which is seek adventure. Like go seek some adventure. Trust your curiosity. Trust your judgment. Learn as much as you can. You know, in many ways you’ve benefited from what I call exponential learning, right? And precisely because you took those first steps of trusting your judgment. And I sort of view judgment as a muscle that it’s not linear. Yeah. And so you’ve got the benefit of this exponential learning. And at the end of the day the good of that is that it enables you to hopefully impact a few people a little bit better. And I think today you impacted a lot of people.

Ah, thanks.

So thank you for being here.

Yeah, thanks for having

You’ve been listening to the Founder Mindset with Reza Satchu.