Kushal Desai Cmd Apar Industries The Spotlight

TITLE: QvZ1I3RFQ6c CHANNEL: Unknown DATE: ---TRANSCRIPT--- there’s one universal equation customers are just  looking for uh companies and products which are   better faster and competitive you know it’s in  its pricing and I see not necessarily cheaper   but competitive because there is a quality value  equation in there but that’s what they’re looking   for and I think your reputation plays a very  important role as you start getting into uh   um you know some of these overseas markets founded in 1958 Apar Industries has played an  integral role in the electrical industry in India   today the company is a giant in its space with  three business verticals and revenues in excess of   14 000 crore rupees in this episode of the Sensei  Kujaku show Kushal Desai chairman and managing   director of Apar Industries discusses various  aspects of the business including the emphasis   laid on technology from day one the importance  of scale and The crucial role the company plays   in enabling key sectors of the global economy Mr  Desai also describes the enormous impact of his   father Dr N D Desai and recounts the remarkable  story of Dr Desai’s contribution to man walking   on the moon go ahead and press the like button  and subscribe to our channel for more videos   on business investing and Entrepreneurship Hi Kushal bhai thank you so much for taking   the time, welcome to the Sensei Kujaku  Show. Most welcome Krish happy to be here  there’s a lot of really interesting components  to your business but in some ways probably the   most interesting thing is actually the people  leading the organization you are the third   generation that’s in the business um what  I want to understand is the importance that   sound technical grounding and knowledge  has played in the development of Apar   and how the company has been influenced by the  fact that the leaders through the generations have   a very strong background in engineering I want to  understand how that has influenced the business   and and led you to where you are today so actually  uh you know Apar’s businesses are building blocks   essentially for infrastructure and  particularly power infrastructure   so we have a overhead transmission line business  you know overhead conductors one of the largest   players in the world in that we have a specialty  Oil Business of which the largest component is   Transformer oil which again is connected  to the electrical industry it’s a critical   raw material or a component that goes into a  Transformer which in turn goes into a substation   and then we have a Wire and Cable business so by  its very nature it’s you know quite electrical   um so we’ve always been an engineering-led  company so it was founded by my grandfather   he had a mechanical and electrical engineering  degree my father took over uh from him after   working in the business for almost 25 odd  years and he is a PhD in electrical engineering tomorrow’s Solutions today and the way in which  Apar has grown is that we’ve been very focused on   the product lines which we have but we wanted to  be world leaders in those product lines you know   to provide customers a solution to their problems  difficulties needs or aspirations as a case maybe   and so as a consequence at  least up to this stage uh having   um Senior Management and Business Leaders were  very techno technologically focused has really   allowed our part to grow you do need you know  today to shop technology in some of these areas   is not easy because our main competition is  complete out of Japan Korea United States   especially at the high end of the spectrum or  in the from the Middle East where they’ve paid   tons of money to get the technology so in our  case each of the businesses has an r d Center   and all of them are dsir approved you know  Department of Science and Industrial Research   and we focused in terms of developing all these  products and own our own IP and the advantage   of owning our own IPS within the world is your  Market you don’t have restrictions in terms of   where you can sell moment you buy technology  it comes with strings attached so I think so   far the development of apparel has progressed at  this pace because of a major technology focus and   a technology Edge having said that going forward  now that the company has grown to a certain size   uh it’s possible now to bring in people in fact  we’ve always had good people but the size and   the budgets that you have you know spending on  R D the scale that you have you can afford and   bring in the best you know technology Talent yeah  so I think it’s been very important so far but   going forward um I think we can have a broader  base it doesn’t have to be a family-led person   so that’s that’s actually really interesting  bring up three really interesting points and I   want to get into each of those one of which is  competing globally but before we get into any   of that you brought up your father Dr Desai  who and you spoke about his PhD there’s an   interesting story and and I’m not sure how  true it is and how much of it is Legend but   he played a role in actually putting a man  on the moon and getting him back is that true   so well you know when uh my father was doing his  uh PhD at Penn part of that P it’s another 150   Engineers who were involved in one aspect you know  it was a very complex thing and there was this   big race going on between Russia and the United  States so they had thousands of Engineers working   on various aspects so there was a team of 150  Engineers of which uh I believe five or six were   from Penn uh from the electrical engineers to the  more school of electrical engineering at Penn who   were involved in the uh trajectory of the space  shuttle to get to the moon and then getting the   shuttle off you know from the Moon back into the  orbit so he was one of the members of that team   and in fact uh it was very mathematical Governor  I understand uh you know from him and that’s   one of the reasons why his uh thesis advisor was  very keen that he’d be there because he was very   good in math but it was a fast track PhD because  typically these phds take uh three four four years   and in this case he got his PhD in just a little  over a year and a half because it had such a tight   timeline that’s that’s incredible actually um  but so so I’m gonna come back to the business now   you spoke about competing globally and like  you said the minute you’re competing globally   you’re competing against the best and often your  comedian in their home markets absolutely so I   want to understand two aspects of this one is  the first and foremost I want to understand how   do you think you compete effectively globally  like I was saying that for example if you don’t   have you are the away team in some sense right  how do you compete with them because like the   way India’s happening I’m sure a lot of countries  have their own desires their own local companies   so what what do you think has worked for you  to win contracts in other countries so I think   there’s one universal equation these customers  are just looking for uh companies and products   which are better faster and competitive you know  it’s in its pricing and I see not necessarily   cheaper but competitive because there is a quality  value equation in there but that’s what they’re   looking for and I think your reputation plays  a very important role as you start getting into   um you know some of these overseas markets  because unlike in India where there is too   much emphasis on whoever is the cheapest I think  the equation in a lot of particularly developed   markets other aspects are are also taken care of  and are in fact given significant emphasis which   is timely delivery high level of reliability  you know or non-delivering product on time   uh making sure product is delivered on  spec because in many of these countries   the fixed costs you know a cost of of not  getting it right the first time is very high   so they lay a lot of emphasis on these things  so once you’ve developed your business and uh   the customer has a level of trust which is based  on your reputation and on the track record that   you have it’s it’s it’s really possible for you  to compete anywhere in the world and not another   important component of this is the scale obviously  in a lot of products while cost may not be the   only consideration it’s obviously a consideration  so it’s a very important consideration yeah and   so so how how how important do you think scale  has been in allowing you to compete globally   it’s very important because as I said you know  there’s better faster cheaper slash competitive   and uh scale helps you get there secondly you know  in the last 10 15 years you know do you typically   hear of innovation that’s happening in software  and chat GPT and Ai and Generator Ai and all that   sort of stuff but um you know I’ve been around  for now 34 years and in the last 10 years the   amount of change and and Technology Improvement  that has happened in all of our products is more   than had happened in the previous you know 50 60  70 audios and so the scale enables you to invest   and build scale even in your in your technology  research development the equipment that you put in   because some of the equipment that you have which  is the best in class also comes with fairly large   output so if you don’t have the scale to be able  to you know Market the product that’s produced   again you’re in trouble and you don’t want to  do it uh by just cutting price because then you   don’t the the waterfall you know in terms of  the profitability just isn’t in place to keep   the business healthy yeah and and you spoke  about technology and I know in your company   there’s some really Innovative products that  you guys have uh sort of put out in the market   a historically but also in recent years one of  the things is evm technology and there’s I’m   sure all in all your product lines there’s a lot  of innovation and like you said what happens is   for people like me you hear of some of the more  sort of well-known things in software and things   like that but in a lot of heavy industry there’s  a tremendous amount of innovation that I would   not know about right so so I want to understand  that what are some of the key developments that   you think your company has put out in the market  and and if you can give me an example where you   think that your product or some Innovation that  you guys have put out in the market is clearly   Superior to anything that exists otherwise so we  have a bunch of products but there is one which is   quite interesting and you can touch everybody’s  lives in a way because you can go into every   single installation home today you can’t have  any installation without having an electric plug   right whether you’re sitting in a car  whether you’re sitting in a train in a plane   um so we have a house wire which is called aparana  the name anushakti comes actually from uh you know   it’s atomic and what the Electron Beam does is  that it’s essentially a small cyclotron so it’s a   high uh so it’s a like a particle accelerator so  it accelerates these electrons to create a beam   and then as the beam falls on a polymer  it cross-links the polymer and once the   polymers Crossing it gets its final properties  so in this case what is differentiating is a um it’s melt resistant so it’s almost short  circuit three short circuits happen when two   naked Oscar teacher is as simple as that so it  doesn’t melt uh secondly you can carry 50 more   power than the conventional wire today you wire  a house and you don’t know what you’re going to   actually what electrical appliances you are going  to use and how much power you’re going to draw   you know tomorrow we’ll have a robot in there  the robot has a motor you have to move around   and he’s going to draw much more power  than discharging a mobile phone for example   so you don’t exactly know how much power will  be drawn um and thirdly the life on this wire   is 50 years guaranteed 50 year life because the  basic technology that we’ve used for this we also   use for manufacturing wires for nuclear power  plants for uh submarines and warships used for   locomotives you know wiring and locomotives so  the polymer compounding technology which we’ve   got the IP for we’ve developed it ourselves is  using these so basically why a house at once   and for the next 50 years you can forget  about any problems with respect to that so   you know that’s like one Innovative product  which we’re now trying to Market through   distribution channels you know and it has been  quite successfully received yeah and it’s and   the product of course I think it’s been maybe a  year or so where sonusude was uh brought on as   a brand ambassador yeah and and there’s been  this clear push towards I I I don’t call it   a B to C but but less of a b to B product and  market so I think uh these are like two almost   mutually exclusive uh verticals where um you  know when you’re trying to grow the b2c part   of the business you have a completely separate  team it needs a different type of uh mindset and   a different skill set you know to go in and sell  product you know through uh distribution setup   but there are a whole lot of other cables  also going through the same channel they’re   not necessarily as technically advanced but  you know the whole package can be provided   we continue to focus on our B2B side because I  think uh there’s so much innovation that’s still   uh out there and can be applied you know in the  businesses that we have like you take for example   um EVS you know electric vehicles coming up now  you need a charger set that’s in place and you   need a harness for it you know it’s a solution  so you have a wire you have connectors on either   side and the one which gets plugged into the car  and it’s in the form of a of a harness because   you know you don’t want to buy the wire separately  in a frame separately it’s a full it’s a finished   product so we’ve developed the cable we’ve tied  up with a connector manufacturer you know sooner   or later we make the characters ourselves and  here you go we have a harness that’s going   into guys who are now supplying this for electric  vehicle charging so that’s it that’s an important   development I think at about which is you’re going  from saying okay here’s an individual product   here’s an individual product to say here is a  360 solution that we can offer so do you think   that that is a that is an important push from a  business angle where you can add because you’re   adding so much more value to your customer that  there is a very tangible impact on your financials   is that is that how you think absolutely  yeah because you know if it’s fundamentally   playing the role of a doctor when you’re solving  somebody’s problem or meeting somebody in need   then the value is much higher than if you’re just  applying a commodity unit so in in this particular   case uh if you take apart you know there is a  safety angle to it there is a capacity angle   to it and there’s a life angle to it so when  there are tangible benefits for you there’s   another uh product line that conductor division  has been developing which are what are called uh   hdls or you know high efficiency conductors  now when you’ve got uh Power coming into cities   the right or way that you have is restricted you  just have one set of towers you know you can’t   build a parallel line there’s just no space you  take Mumbai for example you will see these towers   which are there you know coming in for you know  our offices in chembur from my office window I   can see you know the power lines coming in we’ve  reconducted those lines so you’ve got these towers   which are in place there is no additional  right-of-way that’s possible power consumption   in Mumbai going up five seven percent a year  when EVS come in and start getting mandated BST   buses switching to power the taxis will solve into  electricity your taxis going electric metro rail   and you know the underground Metro the overhead  Metro all electrical so basically we want to   reduce emissions in a highly concentrated area  you’ve got to go to a zero emission solution   zero emission solution is driven by  electricity because it has no emission   so you need all this extra power  coming into a city no right-of-way   so what do you do either you go underground  which is a very expensive proposition   with more challenges on right away or you design a  new conductor that runs on the existing structure   maintaining all the properties so it can carry you  know doesn’t have a sag which is small that’s why   it’s htl it’s low side so you’ve uh so that’s a  solution which you can design with the utility   and depending on the amount of money they want  to spend in the amount of power that they want   to transfer the amplicity that they want on  the line you can go from 15 higher to 300 High   so now the solution that we would offer is you  sit with the utility understand you know the   structure understand the SAG understand the  budget that they have how much power do they   want to transfer and then you know if if you  look at the famous engineering thing or theory   of constraints you put all these constraints  in there and you design an appropriate system   so that is much more valuable to a  customer and say okay here is my htls wire   so what we are finding is that you know as  you have more Innovative products you need   to convert those Innovative products into  a solution that the customer can use on a   turnkey basis yeah so I want to understand  this Dynamic with customers a little more   how how important or is it is it possible in  your mind that you can preempt what a customer   needs and innovate in advance or is it because of  the nature of the business and because everything   has to be so specific to an individual requirement  that it has to the sort of requirement has to come   from a customer away they knock on your door and  say look this is what we need and then you so so   what I’m trying to understand is that the time  frame within which all this happens so I think   there’s a combination of both one important  aspect is you know it’s just not a bank that   needs to have a kyc every business needs to have a  kyc know your customer so we encourage uh all our   business managers to spend time with customers and  understand the trends and trajectories because you   know when when then he comes up it just doesn’t  come up necessarily overnight especially when   it’s strategic in nature there’s there’s a lot  of thinking that goes so once you build a trust   relationship with the customer they’re ready  to bring you in very early in their thought and   design process because they see you as one of the  Strategic Partners in terms of you know building   their future so I think that’s something that we  really invested in over the last 60 plus years   um in addition to that you also have customers  calling and saying hey I have this problem can you   solve it what I have this requirement you have a  product that can meet it yeah or in many cases you   know they are buying from another uh from another  supplier and they want to diversify their their   supplier base or they want to have a redesigned  or a less expensive product so they’ve come and   approach us so it’s a combination of both you know  when I look at your product line especially cables   I mean all of them is I I think particularly those  two broader clients the mission criticality of   your um of your products and solutions that you  offer customers and especially when you think   about the kind of Industries in which they’re  going right they’re going the most important   power public transport like you said naval  ships I mean so so the mission criticality and   they may not for example you know [ __ ] it  may not be actively used for 30 years and   they overnight it will be used in an emergency  so there has to be that complete confidence of   the customer that whenever I need it the product  will perform as for my requirement absolutely and   obviously your last part of that eventually  boils down to the Quality that you produce so   what what have been over the years what lessons  have you learned in ensuring that your product is   best in quality I I don’t just mean in terms  of you doing your best but ensuring that you   are competing and hopefully out competing people  globally so you know uh quality benchmarking and   creating a quality focused culture in the company  is very important and it’s got to be a movement   you know gone other days where you can just  test products testing of product is critical   but just by testing product doesn’t mean that  you’re going to always consistently produce a   good product because of the nature of our products  is that we produce it in Mass quantity and you   can’t test it actually you know we produce  thousands of kilometers of conductors a day   you know your producing thousands of kilometers  worth of cables energy of all different varieties   so we run quality programs so you know you start  off with 5s and Kaizen you know the lowest level   you know at a micro level but then we run  Six Sigma quality programs across because   Six Sigma we believe is the most uh suitable  for our type of products which is produced in   very large quantities so Six Sigma means that you  know you have only you have less than 3.4 defects   per million opportunities and not necessarily  that all our products have reached at stage   but once you cross four and a half Sigma you are  at a level where your quality is actually very   good it’s very reliable uh we also lay a lot of  emphasis in terms of in process quality checking   and you know process quality because you’re  producing as I said you know high speeds big lens   we’ve implemented now and in the I won’t say  implementary in the process of implementing   a thought Auto industry 4.0 that enables  you to get online you know uh measurements   not only do you see the uptime of machines  and stuff which helps on the productivity   side but you can hook it up so that all your  critical to Quality parameters attract 24x7   and then you can dashboard them you know to  show which periods of time they’ve gone out   of spec or they’ve been running at the territory  of you know what you would have accepted expected   in terms of the range Etc so there’s a lot of  technology that you can also Implement in process   for maintaining quality but today you  know the cost of failure is very very high   and especially in systems like ours you  know if a violin uh creates a problem then   the cost of you know destringing it and  and it’s gone to some and you know these   are in remote places imagine if it’s gone  to a remote location in the United States so you just need it first time right yeah there’s  I mean there’s very little margin for error for a   number of years yeah yeah yeah and and so honestly  interesting things that you spoke about was and   especially in recent times when you think of  ESG and you know the focus on Renewable Power   your company plays a critical role in that um in  that business as well what I want to understand is   within let’s say non-traditional power sources so  I mean whether it’s Solo in nuclear whatever it is   is there is is there for each of those types are  there different sets of products absolutely and   and how do you and and so I also want to get your  sense in terms of if you look at it from the power   production point of view in the context of your  products do you think that solar or window nuclear   has an advantage over the others so the you know  advantage or disadvantage see it fundamentally   all these three sources are low emission or zero  emission there is no emission when you have solar   there’s no emission when you have wind there is no  emissions in the air that you have under nuclear   there are some nuclear waste which you need to  handle uh this is a very high level of safety   that’s required in a nuclear reactor or a nuclear  power plant but there is no emissions that you are   talking about so today the world is I mean these  greenhouse effect all this is just the air is too   polluted all over the place ozone layer gone you  know there’s a lot of issues so there’s no choice   better or not better you’ve got to go down  this path um fortunately the world leadership   has gotten together and set targets for  you know individual countries have come   up you know giving their own targets of of  renewable energy that they want to bring in   so I think this is an area which  is going to grow for the next   few decades you’ll have developed countries you  know probably completing the programs within   a decade but then you have the rest of the world  which is uh still doesn’t have the infrastructure   but the park consumptions are going to grow  and they have the opportunity today to then   start off by putting in renewable sources of  energy which is what is being uh incentivized   so you’ve got different so you know at the  at the front end you have different products   so for example you take a solar installation  we are the largest producer of string cables   in the country which is the cables  that connect the panels solar panels   then you have a separate cable that takes you from  there from that inverter box or whatever down to   the electrical panel then from the electrical  panel to the substation and then the substation   connects either through a high voltage cable  solution or Moss most likely a conductor solution   again in that substation there is a  Transformer because the electricity   is generated at a particular voltage it  needs to be then stepped up for transmission so we basically are playing you know in the entire   um end-to-end you know of the Electrical uh  once the power is generated in a panel the whole   distribution and transmission of that if you take  a windmill there’s a separate cable that goes into   the windmill into the tower if you’re the largest  producer of that cable in the in the country   um and we export that cable because most of the  players are Global players you know in that in   that area um so again you have a unique product  over there but then once the cable comes out the   solution then is similar similar type of cable to  substation and then from there going out nuclear   power plant is a lot more complex because it has a  huge amount of instrumentation and control cables   a lot of instruments you know for safety for  measurements you know all that sort of stuff yeah   and we are one of the largest suppliers of cables  into the nuclear silos it’s something that we’ve   done by Design by knowing that the world is moving  in that direction we’ve put in our r d rupees   you know and build products yeah yeah nucleus  nucleus particularly interesting to me because   like you said the main concern with nuclear is  the safety aspect not the ability to produce   the power you need but there’s been tremendous  advancement on the nuclear power plant design   side which has made it far safer than rewards  and they’re working on different size formats   because the problem with the with solar and wind  is that it’s not good as a base power source   this solar is available for five hours in a day  even in a country like India which is a very sunny   country 10 o’clock to three o’clock is when you  basically produce the pump before 10 AM it’s less   after 3 P.M it’s it’s also less so five hours is  the peak generation today battery Solutions are   still not there at the moment you know wind  is a bit complementary to solar you know the   nights uh or or when the monsoon is on in India  very little solar generation where the wind is   much more during that period so you get a lot of  wind generation there so the two are complementary   but they don’t run 24 by 7. a nuclear plant can  run 24 by 7 and can be adjusted in terms of the   power load that it is supposed to give so you  see in a country for example in the summertime   power consumption is very high everybody wants  the air conditioner on even at night everyone   wants the ACM whereas you come to December January  February even in Mumbai there are nights where you   don’t need the AC you’re happy to have the window  open or or whatever you know so as the fluctuation   happens uh solar wind not capable of taking care  of you need nuclear you need Hydro you need some   of these other things which can provide the base  load so all of these sources of Power are going to   exist what is coming going to be very interesting  is the conversion of this you know into storage it   can either be in the form of batteries it can be  in the form of hydrogen it can you know there’s a   whole lot of stuff going on yeah and I’m sure even  as a world moves in that you would play some role   in that storage process um well the storage is a  totally different technology but even in batteries   for example again you need wires you know and  we make a range of wires for Batteries right   so especially in recent years there’s been we’ve  the world is constantly learning the importance of   um not being necessarily react on other countries  for Mission critical components and for instance   there was a semiconductor issue not some  time ago globally so in that space is there   something particular does if it’s not necessarily  manufacturing semiconductors but somehow involved   in that space not really um but is there a  specific reason is it is it just completely   yeah it’s a completely different world and you get  into uh semiconductors design so I have a little   little idea in terms of that but you know from  1989 to today it’s gone through like multiple   generations of uh of improvement especially  in terms of the concentration of you know   the nanometer technology that’s there you  know the lithography that is like leapfrog   but it’s a totally different world there we  are happy focusing on what we do best yeah   yeah and you know and today what’s happening is  that there was a time in India where companies   spread themselves thin they wanted to be in  a lot of different businesses and probably it   was different from the fact that if you got an  advance if you if you got an industry license   that was a kind of license for you to survive  and make money in this country after the   liberalization has happened Building Technology  expertise domain expertise is is most important   so rather than do 10 different things we’re  in Three businesses all three businesses have   a runway for you to you know sort of grow and  you know you can have larger and larger planes   taking off from there so you know why play around  um all markets are growing all around the world   for these products so we’re just highly focused  on our products yeah it’s interesting Focus so   modern bathroom Bill Gates when they first met  and they famously they they didn’t really want   to meet but they ended up spending 10 hours  together and one of the questions they asked   each other is if you were to pick one thing that  separates the good from the very best Business   Leaders what would you think it would be and they  both said the same thing which was Focus so it’s   it’s interesting like you said a lot of businesses  not just I’m not just on your industry I’m saying   you look across company yeah that uh you will  find something only when you are looking for it   so you know we are looking for a solution to a  problem that your customer has or or a need that   they have you would ultimately find it but how  many things you could be able to look for at a   time right so prioritizing focusing you know is a  very important thing and today the resources are   very expensive I mean in the last few years if you  see uh it’s just not equipment but you know cost   of salary wage you know all those things now cost  of money today with the interest rates going up   you just resource allocation is probably one of  the most important things for a business leader   to do you know to set the priorities make sure  that you’re focused uh to deliver so I think   that’s something that we are obsessed with and  we don’t want to change that at least not in the   foreseeable future so a question like this there’s  one thing I want to end with which is again take   you back to your father and you spend many years  I mean obviously personally but also many years   working with him so when you when you think of  Dr Desai the entrepreneur what what what uh what   what are one or two key lessons that you think  you learn from him so actually you know the the   biggest takeaway that that I have had and I think  my brother caitanya who’s worked even more with my   dad you know one-on-one is that you know he uh was  really good at balancing different aspects within   the business and his personal life so he uh was a  follower of Lord Krishna he was a vedantic scholar   so he studied the scriptures thoroughly and  of them the one that he used to keep saying   is a manual which kind of gives you the best  instructions and information in terms of I would   say not instruction but guidelines on a day-to-day  basis of bhagavad-gita so he had that at the at   the heart of his activities in the way in which  you know his activities were dovetailed and guided   so one of the aspects that he really managed to  balance well is spirituality and business and you   often think that the two of them are disconnected  but they’re actually very interconnected because   when you have that Outlook everything changes in  terms of you know the way you look at translation   your focus on building an institution because  you realize that you’re only temporarily so if   you want a legacy to continue the culture becomes  very important you know and if you start living it   then that’s the best example right you’re walking  the talk so I think the biggest takeaway was that   in addition to that I mean just from uh from more  of an entrepreneurial aspect a very intuitive   person you know so once he would uh he’d do  a lot of study just basically it’s Scholastic   you know doing a PhD you know uh and stuff like  that um and then doing these vedantic studies and   things but uh uh you know once he was convinced he  used to always say that luck favors the brave you   know so once you’ve got yourself convinced that  you know this is the path to go then you’ve got to   open your chest and take that risk that calculated  risk and uh he never shied away from that you know   so that’s at many times in the trajectory of  a power you know we had to invest in products   you know invest in a market see there was a big  stigma of manufacturing in India today it’s a   different ball game but when we started venturing  out as pre-2000 where basically if you uh send an   email saying in apar industry is from India that  name was deleted or if you wrote a letter or sent   a brochure it was thrown in the Dustbin because  you know India just had a stigma around quality   ethics just there was just nothing right that  people felt about Indian businesses the software   industry played a role but I think companies like  us on the electrical side had a parallel track   see if you see most of the Great Indian software  companies grew up in that leading up to 2000 and   post 2000. so apar also had its trajectory around  the same time falling into you know these overseas   markets so initially it was very difficult and he  was a guy who always believed in you know looking   at the infinite game you know when you when you  change the time Horizon everything that you do   and everything that you look at changes so it  gives you that ability to you know invest on a   longer term basis you know to pursue a goal which  may take several months or years to deliver but I   think some of those efforts and you know some of  that learning which he imparted in the company   we are benefiting from it today but question like  this was absolutely fantastic it was great hearing   about all these things I hope you enjoyed it  as much as I did yeah interesting questions   thank you very much for for having me and I hope  you continue this thing I will thank you so much