Inside Life Of An Ias Officer Who Got 57 Transfers In 34 Years Ashok Khemka

TITLE: Inside Life of an IAS Officer who got 57 Transfers in 34 Years | Corruption EXPOSED Ft.Ashok Khemka CHANNEL: Ravi Kapoor, IRS DATE: 2026-04-13 ---TRANSCRIPT--- Some of the most effective officers in the Prime Minister’s Office were also without any previous experience in the central government. And unfortunately, there are some careerists who only look after their career and do nothing. They are the most unethical breed and do the greatest damage to the society. Apo cancellation order sign karna se pele kaas hoti rati hai. Apki reasoning kya thi? There I found that the transaction was done without the permission of the consolidation officer. Sir, jo naam hua par aapko dikhe, did you imagine that this will come back to me? Initially, I thought I would lose my job. The entire machinery was put against me. I became a pariah in the service. What changes inside you? A transfer, 30th transfer, it keeps on happening, happening, happening. I want to ask about this, what you wrote to CM Khattar. There was no response. There was complete silence on the letter. The aspirant must pursue his passion. Sir, welcome to the show. Privilege, you are a legend and one of my heroes. And even before I entered the services, I will admit Are they like this? Or admittedly, sir, hats off to you, sir. That is why you are one of my heroes. But sir, with your permission, my first question is about this actually what happened, not about the Vadra story. I don’t want to talk about the DLF or Vadra story, sir. I want to know your mind. As a former IRS officer, temptation is so great. Don’t do anything contrarian. What were you thinking, sir? How does your mind work in all this? First of all, thank you, Ravi, for inviting me to your show, The Syllabus of Life. These are— it’s a beautiful title to your podcast. Regarding the question that what was working in my mind at that time, uh, I would say, you know, there was no dilemmas at that time, very honestly speaking. To give a brief background of how this issue came up, sir, through your channel, I would just like to explain it to the public. Uh, it so happened that I was working in the consolidation department In consolidation, you consolidate the small fragments of agricultural holdings into one piece for a single owner, ji, so that he has his agriculture land in one place. For the, the main objective is, this is one of the steps of agricultural reforms, that agricultural productivity improves. And this particular village was being consolidated. And in consolidation proceedings, there are certain statutory, uh, rules. One of the rule is that once the consolidation of a village is notified, there cannot be any sale or purchase of the land there. And even if there is a sale or purchase, it is not banned, but the mutation entries in the village records will not be made. So, uh, while consolidating and allocating new sets of land, the new buyer will not get a hearing, an opportunity of hearing, okay, whether he has been allocated as per his pro rata share in the— before the consolidation exercise. So therefore, when there is any, uh, transaction taking place during the period of consolidation, there are two steps required. That is, you require the permission of the consolidation officer to go ahead with that, and after he has approved it, the mutation entry is sanctioned by the Mahal officer. Mahal is the revenue officer who is competent to sanction the mutation in the revenue record, and then he enters the consolidation proceedings. So this was towards the end of the exercise, and mutation entry was made in the revenue record. So I happened to check, you know, as part of my duty. So those villages which are being consolidated, they are few in number now because Haryana, Punjab, almost consolidation exercise complete ho gayi thi in the ’60s and ’70s. So few villages remain. So this was one of the village which was consolidation exercise was going on. And during my review, I noticed a mutation was entered not by the competent revenue officer but by the consolidation officer. And the value was fabulous. The value given was, you know, ₹58 crores for approximately, if I remember correctly, less than 3 acres of land. So 58 crores, you know, way back in, uh, uh, you know, the 2012. Sure. So I looked at the sale deed and there I found that the transaction was done without the permission of the consolidation officer and the mutation was sanctioned by the officer who was not competent to do so. So there was no other reason, but at the spot, the, the, you know, the transaction was reversed. And something very sinister came to notice, that these are essentially sale and purchase of licenses, which are government permissions. So trading of licenses, or you can say it as black marketing of licenses. Okay, so I annulled that mutation order, uh, and, uh, so there was nothing, you know, I didn’t think much about it whether I should do it or not. There was no other view but this kind of transaction was enacted to favor the, uh, high and mighty and powerful, and the instinctive thought which came, it that this has to be undone. So let it be, let the competent authorities, you know, the affected party approach the competent authority and let him follow the procedure to get it incorporated. So that was it. Sir, jo naam hua par aapko dikhe, kya aapke mind mein uske repercussions ke, punishments ke thought aye? Did you imagine that this will come back to me, hit you back? Well, I had experienced such situations several times earlier. So I knew that this would come. But I had been accustomed to take such things in my stride. But I never thought that it would be so huge and monstrous. So woh expectation nahi tha. But yes, I could observe that I would be— so, you know, I could see smirk in the faces of the concerned officials that he is playing with fire. But as per my reputation, they said, let’s play with fire, he will suffer the consequences. So, but consequence, but it’s not severe, that was not anticipated. Initially, I thought, you know, I would lose my job. So itne consequences severe hui. The entire machinery was put against me. I became a pariah in the service. I became an outlier. Nobody would even talk to me, that he would earn the displeasure of the government. And this continued to a lesser extent even with the change of power. So I became a sort of a, you know, touch-me-not. And at one stage, I felt that maybe I would be thrown off and put behind the bars with trumped-up charges and with false charges. So in our system, the process of the criminal proceedings is a punishment. It is not the end, conviction or acquittal. The process is the punishment. So it is the culprit who enjoys the process because with money he can buy his freedom and he just— it’s one of the risks he takes with his occupation. But it is the innocent who suffers and fears the process, which is very unfortunate. To criminal process samaraya kai baar, because there is no effective remedy for false prosecutions. In the system. So it becomes a punishment for the innocent and it doesn’t affect the, the people who are really guilty. Sir, usko cope apne kiya aur padani mujhe if I am connecting the dots correctly or not, but sir, aapke pass you have a PhD from TIFR, you have an IIT degree, you have an MBA, you have MA in Economics, you also have an LLB. Sir, if I may ask, all, all of these are pursued while you were in service. Was it coping? Were you trying to cope with it? I ask this because I did do MA in psychology because I had started to get fed up with the system myself. And I had my own reasons to do it. And it did help me. It was for me an intellectual escape. Was this— was it the same thing for you? Partly. I was a B.Tech in engineering, computer science before joining service. And I was a research scholar in Tata Institute of Fundamental Research. Sir. And I worked there for a little less than 3 years, and during the service we had come out with some results, and the— those results and those papers were put up to a reputed international journal for publication. And the process takes about a year before the article is published in an international journal after peer review. So, somewhere in, after I had entered service, ‘93, I got the good news that it was accepted for publication in an international journal. And that journal was equivalent to kind of Physics Letters A in the physical sciences. So, it was quite a reputed journal in the journal of computer science. So, then my professor who was my guide, PhD guide, he was very kind and also the Dean of Computational Sciences in the institute. He said with this result you can write your thesis and the Institute would give you, would consider your submission for PhD. That was very kind of him and maybe I may be the only non-resident research scholar of the Institute who was awarded a PhD while not being a resident for the entire duration. And so that was kind of a byproduct. I didn’t work for it so much during the service except for taking a month leave to write the thesis. Economics and law and finance were my love, like psychology is yours. So, uh, there was an option that very difficult to directly get admission into the MPhil or a PhD course in economics or even a postgraduate because our universities are very bureaucratic. So they would say that you need to have a graduate degree in economics to get admitted there. So IGNOU was an option. So I opted for it and I loved doing that course. And MBA I did because there was a condition at that time. You know, I aspired to join the Ministry of Finance when I entered the service and I loved doing all these kind of work which the Ministry of Finance is doing, and I would have been pretty good at it. So to ensure that I am not declared ineligible at any stage of life, somewhere I had read in the notification that people with economics and MBAs and finance degrees are preferred. Hotcha! So I did that MBA to do away with this ineligibility to join the Ministry of Finance at a later stage. With a specialization in finance. So that was just to remove that bureaucratic hurdle. The business administration is actually an art and cannot be really taught in schools. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, yeah, thank you for saying that. It is so important that you said it. And the LLB again was my love. So I was considered strong in law since I joined service. I would read the text and interpret it, the rules and the statutes. So since there was an opportunity to join an evening law course in Punjab University while posted in Chandigarh, I joined it. And mine was the last batch to be recognized by the Bar Council of India. Now these evening classes have been stopped. I see. So that is how I got these 5 degrees. Do you want to know who you really are? Apko chizo mein Excel kyu karte ho? These things are unlocked when you understand personality. Psychometric psychology, advanced, advanced, well-researched personality test, Big Five. Yeah, relationships, wealth-oriented decisions, and everything for free. We have decided to distribute this. We have created the test, the tool is there, the link is in the description. Please go ahead, use it, spread the awareness, become more self-aware. Thank you and all the best. Keeps on happening, happening, happening. At some point, did you feel like, is it worth it? Did that question come to your mind? Well, it’s a hard question. What went in my mind at that time of transfers, a different thing came up. So after I joined the public service, it was a conscious decision to join the public service. I could have, you know, taken up a corporate career or a career in the academics, which was my first love. But after joining, I never looked back. So, so it was like, you know, do or die. So every transfer you went, the initial transfers were a disappointment. You were shy because the thing is, you know, a label is attached to you that in case you are transferred and you are not given a more coveted post, but an equivalent or a less coveted post, then there is a kind of demotion that you have not performed well in the previous post. So that is the kind of feeling, you know, it’s imparted in the cadre. Yes, that look, you were not successful. Word of mouth says successful in the sense that whether you were successful in abiding by the Constitution or abiding by the political master or abiding by the ruler’s wishes. So there is a very thin line between the two, abiding by the ruler’s wishes or abiding by the rule of law. So, uh, But now after retirement, I understand that they also went through the process of this humiliating experience with each and every transfer. Uske baad, then I realized after a great deal of thought, meri toh isme koi galti nahi, I was doing the right thing. So it is unko sharamani chahiye for doing it and for keeping you sidelined. Unko sharamana chahiye, lekin woh beshar mat hi ke. So then you accepted it as your fate and you felt good that you did the right thing. Meri sang hai, problem hai bhi hai ki koi jaise, you know, since my initial school days or college days, simple habit hai mera hai, jab main bed thong kisi kaam karni ke liye toh main upna neighborhood ko thoda clean aur organized kar le tha. Doko jhadu lagaa lungaa, poochha lagaa dungaa, aur cheez jo ko jajaake fir bed thonga kaam karni hai. When order is around me, I feel comfortable and I am able to concentrate. So service may be that attitude carried forward, ki koi cheeja uski safai kardo pehle, before you go about the main job. That was a trait. Direct problem hai. So isme kya hota tha, that ki agar main nahi kartata koi cheeja aati di, so mujhe rat ko nindani aati di. I used to toss around in the bed, ki woh cheeja kyun chodi maine, ki ameri kam jori thi. Am I fearful of something or am I expecting something? I said, “What am I expecting or why should I be afraid of? I should be grateful that I have this opportunity.” Right? So I said, “No, no, no, no. Tomorrow I would toss in bed, I will go to office next day half an hour earlier and I would complete the task and then move ahead.” So this was a natural trait inside me and I didn’t resist. What is inside me. And I had a good night’s sleep. Sir, I am a child, but I am trying to extrapolate psychology. Sir, your trait is conscientiousness. Without profiling you, you are describing exactly what a highly conscientious person feels. Dissonance feel, you are saying. But you chose a journey and you lived in your own way, so that was the satisfaction at the end. So you could have survived, right? And you could have done bigger things. Big or small, individual contextual or individual perspective. What is big and what is small? The smallest things could be the most beautiful things to do, right? And the big things, maybe just take Hawa hai, ek societal construct hai, ki yeh big thing hai, right? So, but I think you should do whatever your inner voice tells you, and you should do with a clean intent and clean motive. That is what is important. You can do the same act, but motives could be different. So I can tell you a very nice story which my mother was a good storyteller. So we would not sleep without hearing a story from my mother. So one of the stories amongst several, you know, which she told to explain the motive of an action and which has ingrained in my being that what is motive. So act ostensibly may be the same, but motives may be different. So, esataki ek gau mein akal pad gaya, or barishni hui toh akash se bhavishyavani hui. I’m just shortening it. Sure. Kailash mein jo Virajman Shiv hai, o Naraze, gau se Narajo gaya hai, toh jab tak un bole baba ko jo hai, vo prasanna nahi kiya jaega. So, Gao me a kal reh gaya. And the way out was to, there was a linga, Shiv Lingam temple there. Ki bole Baba par jo hai, woh dood chada hai jaye. So, Gao ke saree jamidar jo hai, woh ikatte ho gaye. They took the purest buffalo milk and cow’s milk, balti bahar bar ke, or ling par chadaane lag gaye. But there was no rain, akal akal itha, or Baba prasanna niwe. So ek din jo hai, aise line lagiti Baba ko prasanna karna ke liye, ek budi mai jo hai with a grandson or daughter in her lap, just standing with a lota of diluted milk, milk mixed with water. So Jamidaraya Pichhe, he abused her and said, Pare hat, move aside. The Lord is not propitiated with this pure milk. What are you doing with this diluted and corrupted milk mixed with water? Right. So she stood at the last of the queue. The Lord is not propitiated, no rains. Her turn came and she poured water. Aabhi bhi mere goosebumps ho rahi hai, story sunate hui. So jab ho pani, jab ho “Pani, doodh mila pani jab dali ling par, baadal chane lagai, gad gad aat ho gai, aur tori der mein jo hai, jama jam bari shwi.” So, Parvati was seeing this Bhagawan’s Leela in Kailash Parvat, to usne kaah ki, “Bhagawan ye kya hai? Ye kaise aapki Leela hai?” So, the Lord is telling, “Parvati, ye sab baki sab dikhava kar raithi.” All were making a pomp and show of pleasing Me. But this old lady was treating Me like her own child. Or, yeh se bachche ko doodh pilati hai, pani milakar tak hi use apachhni ho jaye. So, her feeling of mixing water was that, “Bhole Baba ko apachhni ho jaye.” Therefore, the water was diluted with milk before she poured. Bhavana ki maine, I am blessed or pleased with that bhavana and therefore I am pleased and therefore I have blessed the village with thunders and rains. So it is not the act, but the motive behind the act which is more important. I could not, I cannot imagine that being told better. Thank you, sir. I know, and for that story, because I also got the goosebumps when the climax came. And so, yeah, but we get the point, sir, and, and we appreciate it. I want to ask about this, what you wrote to CM Khattar in 2023, and Vigilance Department, legendary move. No one, however high and mighty, will be spared. Or letter extraordinary, it is, it is unheard of. To— for a foreign officer to say such things, to write them, put them in writing? I was sidelined. Somehow there was a lack of trust, sir, in me, that maybe I may not abide always by what is said. Therefore I was sidelined and I had hardly any work in the office. So I was spending my time largely in doing the revenue cases. So hearing the, you know, those land-related matters. So this is the jurisdiction of the financial commissioners. So spending time there, but the main work, a week, maybe I had 30 or 40 minutes of work. I was handling archives department and Haryana being a state which was carved out in ‘66. So post-‘66, there was hardly any archival records other than those bureaucratic government files. So not very few events would be of historical importance, right, after say 100 or 200 years. So not much work to be done. So then there was a lot of corruption was being, you know, discovered around that time, reported around that time. And the work of the Anti-Corruption Bureau in Haryana is not up to the mark. So very strangely, in the last— in, in my— during my time, the Anti-Corruption Bureau, or known earlier by the State Vigilance Bureau, had hardly caught or convicted any Class 1, forget an IAS or IPS or any MLA or minister or MP. Sure. So it doesn’t justify— you can as well close the ACB. And save hundreds of crores on annual basis to the government. So if there is no corruption, or you are not able to catch— now you cannot be the prosecutor and the judge, right? Your job is to collect evidence, present it to a neutral body like the judiciary, and you must get the corrupt convicted. So in that context, out of a sheer frustration that what is happening, I thought maybe the CM wanted to handle corruption in a more effective and better manner. And since my voice would not have carried other than through writing, I addressed a letter to the Chief Minister telling that, look, and this was unprecedented in a sense that hardly any service officer had written a letter to the Chief Minister asking for a particular job. And I had promised him in writing that, look, you will get results, right? You can try it for a few months, you will get results. Right, if— because the intent was to control corruption, right? And, uh, what happens after that, if I may ask? No, I expected a response, uh, in a sense that, look, we, we, we give you the job, or we don’t give you the job for this reason. There was no response. There was a complete silence on the letter. Then I also kept quiet. But then I said that, look, I am being paid by the public out of the taxpayer’s money, and it is the duty of the government to take the most appropriate work out of me, sir. So if I am not fit or I am not appropriate, then my service should be terminated. Not retained. You cannot keep a person who has no fault, whose efficiency is good, certainly above average, if not amongst the highest, in terms of, you know, the following the right direction. Because in public services, what matters more is the direction you take rather than, you know, showing your efficiency. Your efficiencies may be in the wrong direction. Then you are harming public interest. Rather than protecting public interest. So working for public interest, you must have the right direction. But whenever given an opportunity, my speed was also very good. So I thought if I have given a chance, at least, you know, some of the big scams— yes, you know, there could be a finality to those big scams because you cannot linger on a process and harass the innocent or let the guilty go free because With time, the evidence gets purged out. Right, right. Witnesses are diluted. They don’t, you know, they don’t have the incentive to give evidences with passage of time. So unless the, the, the process of investigation and prosecution both are prompt, they cannot be effective. I can’t imagine, sir, being the CM, first of all, but if I was and if I got a letter from somebody like you with a reputation like yours, and if I really wanted to, like you said, had the intention of actually clearing house, then it should have been a no-brainer. But if I didn’t do it, my concern is it points to something even more sinister. What do you think they were so afraid of? Well, I don’t know the mind of the authorities who did not act on that letter. It could be that they think that I was not appropriate for it, but at least I wanted a reply. Yes. I expected a reply to that where they could have said very honestly that, look, we don’t find you suitable for that job. That would have been fair. But to, you know, put that letter in the dustbin and not to act upon it or not to reply. I was in the rank of the Additional Chief Secretary. So we have about, you know, 6 or 7 Additional Chief Secretaries of the same rank and scale as Chief Secretary. At a point of time, and any one of them can be appointed as Chief Secretary at the discretion of the Chief Minister. So not to respond to that offer of, you know, handling an important assignment was a disappointment for me. Also, sir, perhaps the silence also says a lot more than we need to verbalize, but it is obvious that it’s not only just suitability, sir, is what I’m trying to say. It’s not just a suitability. Perhaps you are too suitable. You would have shaken house too much. And it is obvious to anybody who is listening to this. A man like you, position like that, you would actually clean house. But who wants the house to be that clean? Well, another trait which I have is that I am very good in investigation. So sometimes I think I would also have been a very good and effective police officer. Yes. If I had been in the IPS. So, uh, I can, you know, do— I would have done very good work in investigating the most complex of crimes. And one can imagine that. Yes, yes. But, sir, let me— allow me to change directions slightly. And from the idea of choosing the right direction, sir, moral integrity ki testament hai. But normal human psychology ki baat mein karna chata hun, jab temptation aati hai, or one of the biggest sources of temptation and one of the biggest sources of punishment is peer pressure, is what you see around you. Mere aas paas ke log kis level pe hai, or main kis level pe hoon, or aapki sir permission ke saath hi, ye tweet, jismein mero parkein pein feel hua. Aapka, aapne likha hai, sirish mein, straight trees are always cut first. No regrets. With renewed resolve, I shall persist. And you wrote this in the context of your own batchmates becoming secretaries and you being sidelined. This is a man who is hurting, and I can’t interpret it in any other way. Please correct me if I’m wrong. My question is, agar yeh bardaas karna pata hai, kisi ko, to be completely true to their own selves, and have integrity. Then the people who are wanting to get into the services, are they anywhere close to this expectation of integrity, or what is going on? No, one should not make an example, generalize a single example. One should always hope, and hope sustains life. Uh, the context of the tweet, I would explain to you that when I joined service, it was my dream to become a secretary to the Government of India. I would not dream to become the chief secretary of a state, but I would dream to become the secretary to Government of India one day. And the, the, you know, unfortunately, I was not even considered for empanelment as secretary to Government of India on the ground that I did not have the mandatory 3 years period of service in the central government. Now, my simple representation to the government was that I was not given an opportunity to serve. I put myself on offer for 3 years, 3 times, and in one time the establishment officer had circulated my name in at least more than a score panel, score of panels, 20 panels. And he was surprised. He said that, look, Ashok, I have been putting your name in all the panels, but they would rather return the panel rather than, you know, select me. And so that was not my fault that I could not serve the central government. For no fault of mine, it was the conscious act of the central government not to pick me up for the for appointment in the Central Staffing Scheme, and that is being used to deny me even a consideration for empanelment in the Government of India. That case is still pending in the High Court of Punjab and Haryana, that at least give me due consideration. You may reject me, you may accept me as fit for empanelment as Secretary to Government of India, but you cannot deny consideration. When you would be surprised to know that the present, uh, in the present higher-up, even the topmost bureaucrat— I won’t name him— some of them are also empaneled as additional secretary without nil, without any service in the central government. In fact, some of the most effective officers in the Prime Minister’s Office were also without any previous experience in the central government. So why make this, you know, create this rule to debar me or put a gate for denying me consideration in the Senate? That, that, you know, was not understandable to me. I thought that was unfair to me. Sir, yeah, patently unfair and perhaps easy to understand, sir, if I may say so. Obviously they did not want you. I cannot think of any rational explanation other than the fact that we bring him in, he is going to shake the whole house up. But I think the one attribute which is, uh, you know, people fear or people do not like is independence of thought and action. So people, you know, it’s a normal human instinct. You are a student of psychology, you would understand that it is normal human instinct to like a certain kind of pliability. So that element was probably lacking in my character. So I like the way you frame it. It is actually something additional in your character, but you frame it in a negative sense. That’s humility. So the, so the independence was to a higher order of degree. And I remember, you know, in one of the departments in which I was considered to be appointed as Health Joint Secretary in the Department of Health way back in the year 2010. So the then minister, you know, called the then Chief Minister to get feedback. So I was told he said only two words, ‘Suneega nahi.’ So that word carried across and I was doomed forever. So even, you know, adverse remarks in the ACR, if they were there, or charge sheets or vigilance inquiries or prosecutions or convictions would have got you through. But Sonega Nahi was more damning than all these, you know, the bad attributes. Which brings me to the question I’m about to ask. But before that, I have to put this out there because it is an anecdote and a testament to the type of person you are. Aapki personality ko sirf upar upar se gauge kar sakte hain. But essay anecdote swar batate hain aapke baare mein. Aapke sirf, once you had an official vehicle which was confiscated. You walked 6 kilometers to office. Most people will see that as a heroic image. I want to ask what it felt like when you were walking 6 kilometers. Your vehicle has been confiscated. The own— your own employer is basically like a stepmother who does not like you. What does that feel like? I think you’re talking about the incident of 2003-4, and At that time, because of an independent action, I was transferred out of that department and posted as OSD Rules, and which meant again no work, right? But strangely, you know, I was working at that time in the at a sufficient senior level of 12 to 13 years in the service, and I was entitled to an official vehicle to and from office to residence and back, or a car allowance in lieu thereof. So neither the car allowance was sanctioned and the office vehicle was not provided to my residence for taking me to the office. So normally, you know, I would get up and be ready at 5 or 10 minutes before 9 o’clock because it takes about 15 minutes drive to the office. So when the car was not there, I had no option but to walk. So I walked down 6 kilometers and came back 6 kilometers, and I experienced the life of the experience of the city as a pedestrian. So then I realized Chandigarh is a difficult city as a pedestrian because there were no, at that time, earmarked lanes for pedestrians to cross streets and the footpaths were quite elevated. Toh pair ko kaafi uchha karkhe, toh it was difficult for senior citizens or, you know, who are not very able-bodied to walk on footpaths. It was not comfortable. Where it became, you know, some of the media channels captured it. So next stage where some media houses with cameras were there to toe, and some people said that maybe he is media hungry. So thise din, an officer offered me some time somewhere in the middle at the junction of about 3 kilometers that, come and sit in my vehicle, you should not be walking. I said politely, thank you, ma’am. So she said that you will not be watched. Chaliye, meri gadi mein tumne ka nahi. Thank you, ma’am. I mean, it’s okay. And there was no media on the third or fourth day when this incident happened. So I think I walked for about 10 or 11 days like this. On the 12th day, a driver came with a vehicle with an office order that this car is allotted to you, and I took the car and came to office. Sir, how you have experienced it? Because I’ve been there and I have some semblance of what it feels like, but, uh, and you have to walk on the road. I could have cycled also. I had a cycle, but then I said, let me walk. Cycling mein usko parking karo, kahin aur jaakar ke aur phir aise karo. Then I said that, look, walking is good for health, so we’ll walk. Sir, speaking of health, the health of the civil services, the health of the bureaucracy. There is no legal mechanism for that. Supreme Court, where Supreme Court, you will have minimum 3 years in an assignment, and there would be a Civil Services Board on whose recommendation the transfers and postings will be made. So the recommendation was made mandatory. By a Civil Services Board headed by the Chief Secretary and two other members, uh, in the case of all the three All India Services. And the tenure of two years for some posts and three years for some posts were given, but they were followed more in the breach. Now, what is an effective remedy to these non-implementation of the rules? There is no effective remedy. You approach the tribunal Now suppose if I am transferred within a week, right? So I have a government order posting me at some place in public interest. So I join, court case becomes infructuous. If I don’t join, there is a gap in service. So that break in service ko jyushte jyushte mere toh retirement ho jaayi jiye bata, court ko order aayega. And that happened in the case of one officer in the service from the Kerala cadre. He considered his premature transfer from that assignment as against the law. And he contested that transfer in the tribunal and in the High Court. Unfortunately, that officer, I think, lost the case in the tribunal, but his appeal is pending in the High Court. Now there is a gap in his service created of something like 6 or 7 months. Now he is going to retire in another 2 years, so he will have hell of a time to get this period regularized. Right, and ultimately he had to join in the new post assigned to him by the government. So there is no effective remedy against such rules. So unless there is an effective remedy, you can have hundreds of rules and systems in place, and if the violator wishes to violate it, he will do it with impunity. Yes. So, question here is, are we left without a solution? No, we are not left without a solution. In my humble opinion, what is required is, you know, there is an old saying that the triumph of evil is possible when the good do nothing. The good must get together. So if there is a critical threshold of good people getting together and supporting each other, you see, the bad people always support each other. Oke, the na Hindi mein chor chor mosere bhai. So precedence, that works better. Only that there has to be a voice if somebody is violating those rules and conventions or is not acting in public interest. Though my ame shaakhaithaun, it is like this that if suppose there is a meeting and the chair in the meeting is humiliating an officer for certain reasons which are not official but for some personal reasons, everybody keeps silent. Uska sahas baadega, wo resist karega, harega. Lekin wo silence se bethare, But what I have experienced, sir, a typical bureaucrat is a combination of intelligence and cowardice. And higher, very high levels of activation energy. Human nature may default in cowardice is incentivized, I will say, uh, of course subject to your agreement to that. Then how can we expect this to happen, sir? You know, Ravi, what is the highest ethical attribute in an officer which should be tested before an officer is given an entry into the public services? Sir, it is courage of conviction. Opposite, courage of conviction, highest attribute, ethical attribute. Independence, courage of conviction. Correct, right. I remember, you know, there was an anecdote of a, you know, a governor who— a new governor had joined the state in the early 2014. So he was fond of me and he used to call me. So he would say that, look, we would take care of honest and good people. So I said, “Sir, all said and done, that’s very good. But you will also like a person who would bend and touch your ghor, that is your knees, and not one who will stand before you with his spine erect.” “Haskar kya nahi lagaa ke, aao tu sahi hai.” Courage of conviction. I was speaking with the Shoklavasa, sir, or unki definition honesty ki mujhe realistic bila ki, or More or less impossible. Is what he told me. Then should we not be testing, particularly this IQ side? But dono ki intent alag ho sakthi hai. So external jo action dekhte hai, that may explain only half the story. The intent behind that is to be seen and judged. Now, courage of conviction, kiya chiche hai? Main jab koi apni personal jindagi mein, apni work life mein, kahi par bhi, what is courage of conviction? Yeah, what is an ethical action? Yes, right? You will achieve higher goals, you will achieve bigger things. But what is the thing which you do? You stretch a little beyond your maximum endurance level. Then you reach the next stage. So, ya bhi personal life mein, you have to train yourself to be ethical. It is not that somebody is born ethical or somebody at the drop of a hat will become ethical or will develop the courage of conviction. Slowly, slowly, consciously, aapko train karna padta hai, aapne aapko. And take something beyond your endurance limit, a little beyond your endurance limit. Agar bahut jada karo ke toh aapke tendon tood jaayenge. Muscle strengthening, stretch beyond. So personality development, physical development, sunshine test. Sunshine test, action, whether it is ethically correct or whether it has the courage of conviction You assume you are, you know, before the masses in the sunshine, open sunshine. Tough tests. Look, I compromise this year because of a small element of fear or a small element of favor. Dhok path hai, dhok nirnai lena hai. To jis nirnai mein aapko kathina hai aari hai. Aap usko avoid karte hai or rationalize karte hai. But phir main karta hun ki aapko diwar mein sarv marni ki juruat nahi hai. Aap apne aapko ford lenge, sarv ford lenge aur kisi ka bhala bhi nahi hoga. You have to go train yourself to be a little beyond your endurance limit. You have to train yourself. Or tavi aap jo hai, halki halki jo hai, you will achieve or you will start training yourself to take ethical decisions and ethical actions. Tendence. Training, is this, is this done? Ethics paper introduced, noble intention. What civil servants require is ethical actions. Ethical actions means is some principles, courage of conviction. This is the natural body processes, right? Implication, yeah, but, uh, normal body. So cutting is always the more ethical option, more ethical, usually thumb rule, sunshine test. For example, you are going to appear for an UPSC interview. And you meet a roadside victim who needs immediate attention. Without your attention, he may die also. So what would you do? Would you go and continue with your journey so that you don’t miss your interview date, which is very important to you? Or would you be a Good Samaritan and help this man? Now, which is the difficult part? To stop and help this man, it is An extreme example, which is most difficult, probably I would also go at the best I may do, you know, if I am placed in that situation, is to give an emergency call and say that at this location there is a person who needs help and move and go and attend the interview. But the hard part is to be a good Samaritan and maybe, you know, try with UPSC and say that, look, I missed out my interview because of this situation, please give me another chance. It may fructify or it may be rejected, right? So the situations— I’ve given an extreme example, but more difficult option, rationalize, avoid. Rationalization, you were made for bigger things, but at the same time I say don’t bang your head against that assessment and judgment. Is with a well-intention that, look, I will not be able to achieve this, I will hurt myself. I completely have understood. And there, there you see, it is only you who can say that whether your action was ethical or not, because you know that how you have arrived at that decision. Sir, but this is not an outlier, sir, this thinking, no? From the normal. But ethics paper, you know, there is a very good example that there was a candidate who appeared in the— he cleared for the IPS, and in the next year he was caught cheating. Now, while clearing IPS, he would have scored high in the ethics part, or interview is also The personality assessment is also a test of your ethical attributes, nothing else. It’s not that how many questions you answered right or wrong. Yes. So ethics, ek, aisa paper hai, jisko ab game bhot acha sikhna karte hai. So it’s not a difficult paper to crack, but it is an art, or the way of living ethically is most difficult. And how to test it while, you know, selecting the civil service aspirants is, uh, you know, a billion-dollar question. But in the current format, they will not be able to sift the wheat, you know, the grain from the chaff. So, uh, maybe, you know, during the service keeping keen observation and then taking a decision to prematurely retire those who are not able to live up to the ethical standards. But then, you know, the question is, the people who are evaluating you, are they ethical? Would they be able to take the, you know, the right decisions ethically? Is again a question mark. Implementable? Nahin. But public life, public service, What you require are ethical civil servants. 100%, sir. 100%. First of all, the aspirant must pursue his passion. Ye prime, jo cheech mein unko karne mein accha lagta hai, usi ko kaam kare. Agar unko, they want to build up a civil career, a career in the civil services, they must, you know, be there because of passion. They love it and love it because they are genuinely interested in the service part of the service. The other security parts, that is the salary, the perks, the, you know, the pensions and the other frills, they are— they come along with the service. So nobody can grudge that and nobody can say no to that. But if they are not living up with passion and doing it ethically, then they should not be in the service. So whatever, you know, to make a meaningful life, um, basic necessities, that is not the end aim. You must enjoy what you are doing. So do you think that’s why people form Bharatya Sthal? They are motivated by the service part of the service? And I also wanted to ask, sir, What is the service part of the service? What should they really be expecting in themselves? Am I even motivated for this? Successful. There should be a change in the format of the civil services, taking into account two things: that the cycle should be reduced from more than one year to less than 6 months. So that those people who try, who, you know, they are— the results are out fairly quickly. They know yes or no. You know, more than a year waiting for the final results is too long, right? And the ratio 1 in 600 means you are wasting the career of 599 people, which is a huge national loss. So, uh, yeah. Bariksha mein kuch antar hona chahiye aur dusra hai, itne sare papers se test bhi kuch nahi hota. So you basically just make a fair cut and those people who show, who are not courageous or who show unethical conduct in their attitude during service, they should be shown the door. And woh chee joh teen aaye service mein, Incentive to, uh, to corruption is huge because the risk of punishment is very less, right? So coming just to circle back to this service part of the service, the attraction is towards the Lal-Bhatti Ki Gadi, the attraction is towards the power and the status and the prestige. That is predominant. Service part of the service, that is the service. That is the service. The duty to the ruler or the master, senior boss, or otherwise. Or duty to the rule of law. So there is a fear or a favor public post par baithega, he will work without fear and favor. Agar unse dhanto par chale, ki without fear or favor aame kaam karna, baitheni reina. Kya ki baithi reina is most unethical act, doing nothing. It’s an act of omission. Procrastination is the most unethical act. Most unethical act. It is better to, I always say, play the game rather than being a spectator and criticizing. Play the game. Either way, right, play the game rather than being a spectator. So it is the most unethical act to do nothing. And unfortunately, there are some careerists who only look after their career and do nothing. They are the most unethical breed and do the greatest damage to the society, to the public interest. So it is very simple, do your job without fear and favor. ‘Whatever repercussions come, take it with a stride. And if there is a critical mass, system will change and improve.’ These things happen because there is no critical mass. Agreed. And they are living in isolation and suffering. Perhaps the number is also very low, is my whole fear. For there to be critical mass, there is a huge gap. So number bhi hai aur sangat hit nahi hota hai. Yeah, so they don’t support each other. Or, summarize principles. Harder thing is probably the more ethical thing. The more difficult thing is the more ethical thing. Sunshine principle. Rule of ruler, sir, versus rule of law. Rule of ruler versus rule of law. Duty is well defined in the books. What is duty? Number one is you are not procrastinating. So you do your duty and that you do without fear and favor. Hamesha dekhe jab aap duty karte hai ki koi bhai piche se hai ya favor piche se hai, aap ye cheech kena gala toh gahi mujhe dar nahi lagta, mujhe bhi dar lagta. Mujhe bhi lala chata dekhe, nusko overcome karna. To overcome fear and favor, this is human. If you don’t have fear and favor, then you are God. And I won’t say there is anything great being God because God is God, right? But human hona, sab se acchi, you know, there is a very famous ukti ki, ‘Devta bhi manav se irshya karte hai.’ Because uske man me dono cheeje aati hai, gala tor sahi. Or wo duand karta dono se, he chooses either, right? Or sangharsh karta, that is being human. Right, so being God or being human, so I would prefer to be human and to have a fight between the inner vices and virtues within me. I understand, I understand. But again, sir, hard to emulate, but I think I understand. And I also think that because You have shared with us your mind, also your psychology and the way you think about it, philosophy or principles. Kyu ki mujhe lagta hai ki the tendency towards rationalization is far too strong in people and more so in intelligent people, which I find is the— Because intelligent people can rationalize, right? Rationalize so much better. So much better. And they listen to the voice of the mind much more than they listen to the voice of the soul or the spirit. Yes, yes. And heart ko bhi attune kar lete hai, mind heart ko bhi attune kar lete hai, aapne sab se. Aur sir, ye ki suvidha vadi mein hoon, iss se koi dishonest feel nahi hota hai, problem hi hai. There seems to be nothing wrong with being just utilitarian. I think you have not probably seen that how satisfied they are in their lives or how good they lead their lives. So smoky par aapne suvidha vadi, for example, like Sweet, aapke paas rakhi, aapne ek chakliya, do chakliya, you give away, teen, char, like in uske baad toh aapko pachho ghee na, system kharab ho karna. So you have to do a resistance at some stage, ki thi ke, I have tasted one, that is enough. Sir, do you believe in karma? Do you? In Divine karma? Yes, not all events in life are as per expectations. So I have a belief in divine karma. And so do you think that coming down from the divine, human world— is the human world fair? Uh, see, you have to accept certain things. There cannot be 100% fairness because fairness parameters be contextual or human to human differ. You can always create. For example, in a theater when there is a play, do you expect that there should be fairness with each of the actors? There would be unfairness with some, fairness with some, in your own contextual framework. So life cannot be perfectly fair. It would become a dull world. Sir, thank you for being who you are, and I can’t thank you enough for the conversation. And for the conversation, education, it is an education par excellence. I can’t thank you enough for it, and I will also request you to keep coming back, to keep preserving yourself, to keep coming back, and to keep in touch with me, because you are an inspiration. And like I said in the beginning, you are one of my heroes. Thank you, Ravi, for the kind words.