Indias Nordic Connection

TITLE: India’s Nordic Connection CHANNEL: Carnegie Endowment DATE: 2026-06-03 ---TRANSCRIPT--- unabashed.

The most unpredictable becomes a headline. [music] The most volatile, outrageous behavior, unsubstantiated narratives, a battle of personalities. Welcome to Grand Theash, a co-production of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace [music] and the Hindusan Times. I’m your host Milan Bashnov. India’s relations with Europe are often viewed through the lens of Brussels, Paris, Berlin, or London. But in recent years, India has also been deepening its ties with another important set of partners, the Nordic countries. Recently, Prime Minister Narendra Modi traveled to Oslo for the third India Nordic summit, bringing together India and the five Nordic countries, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark. The agenda for the six countries was wide-ranging, covering trade, investment, green technology, maritime cooperation, the Arctic, and the Indo-acific. The visit also marks the first official trip by an Indian prime minister to Norway in more than 40 years. As a result of the summit, Norway and India have elevated their bilateral relationship with new agreements on climate, tech, science, and the blue economy to discuss what all of this means for India, Norway, and the changing global order. I’m joined today by my Ellen Stenner who serves as the ambassador of Norway to India, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, and the Maldives. Prior to taking up this position, Ambassador Center was the deputy director general of the regional department in the foreign ministry. She has served previously as Norway’s deputy permanent representative to the UN in New York as well as deputy head of the Norwegian embassy in Ptoria, South Africa. She has been a member of the Norwegian foreign service since 1995. I am pleased to welcome the ambassador to the show for the very first time. Ambassador, thanks so much for coming on. Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be on this show and talk about all these issues that you are mentioning. That’s great. Well, let me start maybe just with a little bit of context for our listeners who who might not be as familiar with this relationship um as as others. You know, India and the five Nordic countries I mentioned earlier, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark recently got together in Oslo for the third edition of the India Nordic Summit. So for people who are maybe unfamiliar with this particular format, what is the India Nordic summit and and you know why does it matter? Well uh you you’re saying it’s the was the third India Nordic summit. The first took place in 2018 in Stockholm and the second in Copenhagen in 2022. And this is a forum where uh the the prime ministers of the five Nordic countries can sit together uh and discuss issues uh the wide ranging ones that you mentioned uh with the leader of the world’s most popular country namely India. Uh and since the last uh since the last um uh Nordic India summit it has India has become the most populous country. uh so uh so it has become more important uh and uh a lot has changed uh since 2022 in the world uh so it was a a really significant and important meeting for all the five Nordic uh countries and uh I I would also like to then say you know why is it important and and just to quote the leaders what they said in uh their joint statement is that we come together we have shared values of democracy, freedom, human rights, pluralism, uh international peace and security. We al we all want um a world based on international law and respect for the United Nations charter. And that’s quite important in this volatile world that we we see today. I I want to just spend a second talking about the significance of this visit to Oslo. I mean, Prime Minister Modi’s visit was the first official visit by Indian Prime Minister’s Norway. I think it was 43 years. Um, if I if I’m read correctly, I wonder if you could just pause for a second and tell me kind of from Oslo’s perspective, you know, why was this such a significant moment? And, you know, what Norway really seemed to kind of roll out the red carpet for the prime minister? Well, of course, uh we we will always roll out the red carpet for the Indian prime minister and as I said particularly now that he is the prime minister of the world’s most populous uh populous country. It’s only the third time that an Indian prime minister visits Oslo and Norway. Uh and as you are saying in n the last time was in 1983 when Indira Gandhi visited Norway. So we really view this visit as as historic uh and uh it’s uh for us uh really uh really uh good that he came uh and uh since India has now become so important I’m we’ve been talking about the population but also in terms of the economy the economy of India has grown so much the last 10 years it’s now the fourth biggest economy in the world and it’s the fastest growing economy uh of the major ones. So we really see uh India as uh as more and more important geopolitically and economic uh partner for for for Norway. So that’s why we were very excited and that’s why we rolled out the red carpet. I I I want to get to some of the kind of animating issues I think both that affect this grouping as well as affect Norway. I think you know the one of the ones that comes most immediately to mind is the question of trade and in 2024 India and the four EFTA countries as they’re known Iceland Likenstein Norway and Switzerland signed something called a trade and economic partnership agreement or TEPA um uh and this was something that was uh very long in the making. I think negotiations for this agreement started like in 2008. There were more than 20 rounds of discussions back and forth before this agreement was finally concluded. Now that TEPA has entered into force as of 2025, what does Norway hope this new accord will unlock in terms of its its relationship with India? Well, um it’s it’s an important uh agreement as you say and we negotiated it for a long time. uh but it is it was uh also actually the first uh free trade agreement that India entered into with a group of European countries. Uh since then we have seen the the agreement with the UK and also uh the the the FDA with um with the European Union has been signed but this was the first and it is now the first to have entered into into force. uh for us it’s uh really very important as I have have already said with the with the scale of India uh the technological expertise and the growing international uh influence uh it’s it’s it’s for sure that this is uh this is very important uh for for for us and for Norway. What are the domains or sectors that are the most exciting or that that seem the most promising from from a Norwegian perspective in in terms of trying to kind of grow this bilateral relationship on the trade and economic side? Uh so for Norway uh um this uh this trade and economic partnership agreement uh really opens up new opportunities. In the last 10 years, uh the trade with India uh and between India and Norway has doubled. Uh in the in the last 10 years also the uh the interest from Norwegian companies in terms of numbers has doubled. Uh but still uh the uh the trade is quite small. uh but we really think that it will uh increase with this uh treaty and that it will double again in the next 10 years if not if not double uh several times in the next uh 10 10 10 years and the sectors uh that uh are very important for us uh where Norway is big uh Norway has a much smaller population than India uh but we are an energy super power uh we are we are a big energy exporter uh and we are also transitioning uh en our energy into green uh energy uh and also Norway actually has the second biggest uh coastline in the world. Uh so our coastline is bigger than India’s but India and Norway are both big maritime nations. Uh so that is also a sector where we see great potential where there is already a lot of uh of uh trading and a lot of cooperation but there is more to come. I mean I should just mention for our listeners who might not be aware I I think Norway has a population of around 6 million people. So we’re talking about a relatively small small country in population terms. But you raised something which I had not realized which makes sense when you think about a map of having one of the longest coastlines in the world and a coastline that in fact is longer than than than even India’s. Um, you know, you you mentioned something about kind of Norwegian investment and and you know, this was I think if you if you kind of look at the the news stories or the coverage of the TEPA, you know, I think one of the headline commitments, there was this uh EFA pledge, the the pledge amongst these four countries to uh push at least a hundred billion dollars in new investment in India. uh that could create up to 1 million jobs. Now, I realize that the agreement was negotiated in 2024. I think it was formally ratified in 2025. We’re we’re talking on May 2026. Not a lot of time has passed, but what progress are you and some of your partners able to see in terms of investment coming into India from uh these four EFA countries? Mhm. So you know this is this is what is uh uh special about this treaty is this investment uh chapter um and uh because all the free trade agreements are about trade but this is about investment also. I often get the question uh around here in India about the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund and should they not invest more in India? Uh and uh they are they are investing more in India. uh and it’s growing with uh the investments are growing with the um with the uh with the growth of the Indian economy but this is uh portfolio portfolio investments and it’s not foreign direct investment uh that’s meaning uh investments by private sector companies and this is what the investment chapter in the in the trade and economic partnership agreement is about. We need private sector to invest more uh in India and uh as you are saying we are still early days we haven’t seen uh so many concrete investments coming out of uh of the treaty yet but they will come and as an ambassador to India uh as an embassy we are working very hard to help promote uh India in Norway to Norwegian companies and help explore where are the opportunities. A month ago uh I traveled to Hyderabad and to Andra Pradesh to Vishaka Patnam uh and there um we really saw the vibrancy uh of of India particularly in Hyderabad there it’s really happening uh place uh for those listeners who haven’t been there for a while uh you can almost see the growth happening uh as you’re driving along the streets and this is a a city where there hasn’t been a lot of Norwegian investments yet so we were trying to explore where are the opportunities uh for uh for Norwegian companies here. This is what we will also bring back uh to Norway and we will bring Norwegian companies to Hyderabad to see that. also in Vishaka Patnam. It’s a port city. Uh already quite a few Norwegian investments there at the Hindustan um uh shipyard uh and uh also at the at the at the port there because we are as we have spoken about a great maritime nation and uh we have companies who have been um cooperating with the shipyard and the port in Vakapatnam and there will be more investments to come there as well. So these are just some examples of uh opportunities uh that we are looking uh to to uh to uh promote for Norwegian companies and I’m quite confident that once they come also and see they will also want to invest there. They will want to be part of that future that is really growing uh there and it’s an optimism that uh you don’t really see almost anywhere else uh in the world uh these days. I want to ask you about the summit joint statement that came out of this meeting with the Nordic countries. Um it says that the India Nordic relationship is going to be elevated to quote a trusted green technology and innovation strategic partnership. Now that sounds very fancy. It sounds very ambitious, but I’m wondering if you could kind of explain to us kind of in lay person’s terms, you know, what does a green technology and innovation strategic partnership actually mean in practical terms? Well, uh I think it means a lot and to uh undertake to explain it uh I will try um but um uh it means of course that uh all the six uh countries uh that uh we’re participating is in this India Nordic summit. We have shared values as I also said uh in the beginning and those shared val values are also of sustainability and a cleaner future and a climate that we can all live with uh and India as the most populous country 16th of the world if uh we don’t find sustainable solutions for India uh the world has lost this so that’s why it’s really important to have this green strategic partnership with uh with India. Uh just to to give some examples and I will give them from uh from the Norwegian cooperation uh to just uh say what it is all about. We have Norwegian and in Indian researchers, scientists who have worked for a few years to try and find solutions for sustainable cooling which means that your air condition uh is uh is uh not uh bad for the climate. Uh and those sustainable solutions for cooling they have managed to develop them. They are now being used in uh in uh in India already. I’ve seen them myself on the fish factory down in Cochin in Kerala. Uh and uh if we can have more solutions like that uh I think it’s really important. It’s good. It’s also about you know how some of the technologies being developed in a small country like Norway uh will be can be scaled up in India and can matter much more than they can only uh if they are only in uh in uh in Norway. We also have a company called uh Comi. Uh they have um they have uh developed um uh uh how to convert sludge into bio gas here in India and they’ve set up systems for that in uh Mumbai. They are now looking to set up systems for that also in other parts of India and having uh working together with uh with Indian uh Indian partners uh on on that. So that also means a lot uh to get uh all with all that uh dirty water around we can actually use it for something uh that is good that is that is sustainable and that is good for the for the future rather than the other way around. [music] Hey Grand Them listeners, thanks for listening to the podcast. 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[music] I mean, you know, on the one hand, there are these conversations happening about green technology, uh, the blue economy, um, sustainable growth, but the summit itself was taking place against a very difficult geopolitical backdrop, which, um, has to do principally with the continuing Iran conflict and uncertainty over energy flows, um, uh, mainly oil and gas. uh uh fuel and fertilizer and you know the broader instability in West Asia and I’m wondering you know to what extent uh from your perspective did these developments happening in what what India calls West Asia what a lot of the world calls the Middle East how did these developments shape the conversations you had in Oslo especially given you know number one India’s dependence on oil uh imports and number two you know Norway’s own role as you said earlier as a both a major energy provider as well as a maritime player. Yeah. You know, only after I came to India almost 3 years ago did I uh did I understand the term West Asia. Uh but it makes perfectly sense to me from see to see it from India. Of course, it’s West Asia. Uh so for for that we call it the Middle East is I I I understand that that seems a bit strange from uh from from here. But uh that’s that was just a side comment uh of course since you mentioned it uh but uh but in in this uh world of turmoil uh and in this difficult uh world of uh of conflicts and more and more conflicts uh uh taking taking place uh for Norway uh and for the Nordic countries uh it is really important to discuss these issues with uh with India. uh we don’t see eye to eye on all issues. Uh for example uh uh uh with with the fullcale invasion of uh Ukraine uh we have the first war of contest conquest in Europe uh since the since the second world world war um and uh that is close to our heart. It’s a little further away from India. Uh West Asia, Middle East is closer to India. it’s between uh our our um our region so much more important to uh to discuss uh and uh I think what is uh what we share all these five uh five um countries that we don’t really think there is an alternative to an international order based on international law. We see it for example uh now when hormos straight has been has been closed. we all agree uh that uh the law of the sea must apply and it must be opened uh opened up. So these issues are important for us to discuss uh with India and I also really believe that together we can find solutions with uh with uh with India if we continue discuss discussing uh that it doesn’t mean that we all always agree uh because we have very different uh standpoints uh but we have a good uh discussion uh and I think uh we will also be able to uh to look at solutions together for for the world together we are uh we are important players all of us. I I want to maybe shift a little bit to a completely different region which is uh the Indo-Pacific and the Arctic and two different regions. You know the joint statement refers to the growing linkages between the Arctic and the Indoacific and I think many of our listeners will look on a map and say these are pretty distinct geographies. I’m wondering how does Norway understand the connection between these two and kind of where does India fit in to Norway’s thinking about the Arctic which is very much in your backyard and and quite distant from India’s own. Um uh well three years ago in June uh 2023 I was newly appointed as Norway’s ambassador to uh to India and I was very lucky because an Indian uh minister visited Norway and he also visited the uh the Arctic island of uh of Swalbar. Uh I went with him uh to visit the island. Uh and um we also went to visit the Indian researchers that sit there in a very small place called New Olison. But they are doing extremely important uh research in this area. And I learned from one of these uh researchers um how the melting of the ice in the Arctic is affecting the monsoon in India. uh and that uh then it really it really striked me that oh these things are really closely connected even though the regions are far apart it is important that we discuss it’s important that we find solutions and it’s important uh that we uh allow uh and make place for Indian researchers uh also um uh in in Swalbad where we have the Norwegian research station [snorts] uh and uh that we cooperate uh to see uh these uh these uh connections and therefore also we can uh we can uh solve them. So I think mostly um it’s really important for the climate and the solutions uh for uh for uh for uh combating climate change but of course also for a variety of uh of different uh reasons with regards to the bilateral relationship. You know, there was this flurry of signings in terms of various agreements. I think 12 agreements in in total during Modi’s visit ranging from agreements on climate to tech maritime scientific collaboration something you just talked about obviously we could talk about each of these but in the interest of time um as you look across this dozen or so agreements that Norway India finalized what are some of the the key highlights or things that you think our listeners should know about these new accords? Well, actually there were um 30 agreements signed. Excuse me, 30. Wow, I was off by orders of magnitude here. Yes. So, it was uh it that that also comes back to, you know, saying how important and uh historic this uh visit was for us uh uh was uh in Norway. Uh and uh it I really I really as you say I can’t say that one agreement is more important than the other. uh I I I can I can only say that uh there were agreements uh signed in a lot of sector technology um partnerships climate cooperation I’ve mentioned some examples already maritime collaboration scientific research and all these uh areas are quite deeply interconnected and these sectors reinforce each other that’s why I think all these 30 agreements some of them uh government to government most of them businessto business uh they create an integrated framework for the long-term strategic cooperation uh that Norway will have with India or that Norway and India will have uh together. Uh so that’s where we really bring in this expertise that we have in green technology in maritime innovation in sustainability and we bring this to India. Uh and there is so much talent in India. This is really where we can scale it up where all these agreements together I think they are even greater uh than the sum of their parts. Um I I don’t know if um you want to elaborate but I think you know one of the things that I find so interesting is you know Norway on the one hand is a major energy producer. It’s also recognized I think as a global leader when it comes to the green transition. India obviously is a situation where they’re growing rapidly. They would like to have greener growth. They’d like to decarbonize. uh they’re still heavily relying obviously on fossil fuels but are making changes to try to you know switch its it its kind of energy mix as you kind of look at the landscape where do you think the strongest overlaps are between you know what India needs developmentally at home and what Norway’s strengths are in the kind of domain of energy and green technology well we have a great respect for the development in India and that this big country um uh and with this rapid economic growth uh needs energy uh and needs uh to develop different sources of energy. Uh and so we are very uh pleased that we are able to contribute in some of these uh areas uh as uh as we are saying just just to mention one example uh last year uh in July um we opened up a project in Norway called the Northern Lights. Uh this is a carbon capture and storage um uh uh facility underwater. Um and part of a bigger project called the long ship project where they actually uh uh carry cement from one part of Norway to the other part of uh of Norway and then store uh store uh the CO2 underwater far underwater. So uh so that uh it is of no uh of no damage. This Northern Lights um uh project will have the capacity of 5 million tons CO2 underwater in 2028. The first uh uh the first u foreign dignitary to to visit this uh this uh project in July last year uh was uh Indian minister of of oil and gas Mr. Hard Singh Puri. Uh so um so he was very interested in this. How can uh how can uh how can India also develop something like this? How can we work together on this? So that is one example. Uh and there are also other examples of um uh hydrogen safety uh how we can uh work on smart grids together so that the the energy grids actually have the capacity to take all the new green energy coming coming through them. Uh and uh these are the issues that we are uh are discussing. some examples. Thank I want to uh transition a bit to talking about something that you’ve referenced a couple of times during this conversation which is this issue of shared values of kind of democracy liberal values that Norway shares with India. Um I I think it would be uh I would be remiss if I did not ask you about one controversy that emerged from Modi’s visit to Norway. There was a Norwegian journalist, I hope I’m pronouncing her name correctly. Hela Lun I think is the best I can probably do. You can correct me. Uh she called out to the prime minister at the end of a press appearance asking why he doesn’t take questions. Later in a different press conference by Indian diplomats, she asked uh why we uh the press should trust India um and whether the country could stop the human rights violations that go on. uh her questions got a pretty sharp response from the Ministry of External Affairs um who argued that you know these kinds of statements come from a place of ignorance. Now you know whether we like it or not this was an incident that dominated news coverage of the gathering I think uh certainly to to people who were kind of you know tuning in from social media from abroad. Um what do you make of this controversy and and do you think the journalist was right to to ask the questions that she asked? M well um you know uh for in Norway and uh I believe in India as well freedom of the press is uh is uh fundamental um and uh I you read out my CV in the beginning uh Milan and uh I don’t know if all listeners are still with us or maybe there are some new but uh but I I have been a diplomat for 30 years uh now and uh uh it is my job as a diplomat really not to comment on what particular journalists do, partic particular politicians do as a civil servant. Uh it it would really violate the freedom of uh of the press if I went into a discussion on on these uh on these issues. So so I hope uh that uh I can have your understanding uh for that on the particular issue uh that you are are are mentioning. But really we be we do believe in uh the freedom of the press as uh I said uh and uh we really believe that uh that media outlets are uh free to make uh their own editorial decisions uh that they are uh that they are free to do whatever they want to do but it’s not my role as an official to comment on uh on uh their decisions uh whether they are good or bad uh or to assess uh assess the decisions. I hope uh I hope you can understand that. Let me just kind of kind of probe you a little bit further on one aspect of this which is you know as a Norwegian diplomat and as somebody who observed the head of your government um have to uh you know engage in both the bilateral visit as well as this Nordic summit. Um what sort of scrutiny are you put under in terms of facing press questions and media questions about this relationship? I mean obviously there are Indian reporters who might want to ask you questions. There are Norwegian reporters and maybe other global reporters. What is the the kind of uh uh availability that you have as diplomats to and and and leaders of your government to to the press whoever you know wherever they might originate. India is the world’s largest democracy. It’s the world’s most populous country and the world’s largest uh the democracy. Uh and um this is also said by our prime minister during the summit that uh as Norway we respect very much that India may have some different traditions. uh and uh that is really up to India to decide uh uh what what they do and as a fellow democracy uh we really want to discuss issues of democracy. We want to discuss uh issues of human rights uh with India. We do that in our bilateral engagement. We also do that within uh the United Nations in other multilateral uh settings. The trade and economic partnership uh agreement that we have talked so much about has a particular chapter about sustainability and uh and uh and uh human rights in the sense of rights for workers. Uh so we do discuss it quite a lot. We have a close cooperation uh uh ship with India on women’s uh women’s rights. that is an issue that India also cares a lot a lot uh about uh and uh as Norway um we do care a lot about women’s rights uh as well as a uh women diplomat uh I care a lot about uh that uh that issue and I really like to discuss that with Indian government as well as other Indian uh Indian uh stakeholders and we uh here in India and the embassy we also O discuss uh a lot with different human rights defenders uh with different journalists uh and we are uh trying to engage with the whole uh society here in India and I don’t find that difficult at uh all uh that has never been questioned uh by uh the Indian government. It has never been questioned really by uh any Indian journalists uh either. Uh so the main story really is that we have um great cooperation uh between India and Norway and that we really have an valuesbased partnership as well as a partnership based on trade and investments. I mean just to kind of end on this I mean you know the prime minister said after the summit that India and the Nordic countries are natural partners quote unquote because they do have a shared commitment to democracy, rule of law, multilateralism, peaceful resolution of disputes and so on. Um uh obviously there is a discrepancy here in the sense that you know if you look at any democracy league table as they’re called Norway consistently ranks you know number one or number in the top five certainly while India’s scores on many democracy indices have declined. It’s not just India by the way my own country the United States our score has declined precipitously over the past several years. Um but I was interested in one thing you said which was that as a Norwegian diplomat serving in Delhi you you feel that you can raise questions of democracy and human rights with your Indian counterparts um while also advancing this kind of broader strategic partnership. Do you think that when you are interacting with your official governmental counterparts, I’m not talking here about civil society or human rights defenders but you know ministers or or senior officials that that you’re you can convey your concerns about Indian democracy uh openly and that those those concerns and those issues are are are listened to. On the other end, uh well let me give you one example to answer that. Uh uh I was invited to a meeting with the election commissioner the the the the present election uh commissioner Gyes Kumar Kumar. Sure. And um and um I am fascinating fascinated by elections in India. I was here during the 24 elections. You it’s the biggest undertaking uh of uh of any election that has ever taken taken place. And practically it’s it’s functioning it’s happening and that’s of course uh really really really a good sign for the for the Indian democracy. uh but also in the meeting that that I had with the election commissioner uh I could ask him questions uh about uh the recent discussions that have been about the the sirs uh uh about uh uh about and this is the I’m sure most of our listeners know but this is about the special intensive review revision of the electoral roles. Thank you for for saying that because I wasn’t able to to [laughter] that’s okay. I mean, well, I I’ve been I’ve been learning that there’s, you know, all kinds of differences. There’s a regular revision, there’s an intensive revision, there’s a special intensive revision and all of these things mean something different. So, uh, it’s quite difficult to remember what what sir stands for at any point in time and I don’t really like abbreviations. And in this in this instance, I just used it because I couldn’t think I couldn’t think of of how to explain it. So, then you helped me. I was very happy. But I could ask him those questions. Uh we talked about local elections. Uh and I explained him how we do local elections in Norway. You can actually uh you can actually elect people um on a personal basis on lo in local elections in Norway. We don’t have the same system as uh in India. We have the system with lists and and uh nationally you cannot um you cannot uh elect on a personal basis as you do here. Uh but you know how how is that happening in Norway and he was very interested in hearing he actually also said he was interested in coming to Norway to see how we do it uh and to see if there was something to learn from that. But he also invited Norwegian election commissioners to come to India to see how elections are conducted here. So I found it was quite a frank and open discussion. Uh I’m not saying we agreed on everything and uh and uh that uh uh the systems are quite different. So of course then the views can be quite different uh also but in respect and uh quite uh open and frank. My guest on the show this week is Ambassador Mai Ellen Stenner. She serves as Norway’s ambassador to India, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, and the Maldiv. She spent more than three decades as a member of the Norwegian Foreign Service ambassador. Um, it was so good to meet you. So good to talk to you about what India is doing with Norway, with the Nordic countries. Thanks so much for taking the time. Well, thank you for having me and it’s been great to be here to also uh also uh explain about how Norway can be part of this fantastic growth story that [music] India is. Grant the Masha is a co-production of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in the Hindusan Times. You can find us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to rate and review. It helps other people find the [music] show more easily. For more information about the show, to support the work we do on Grant Theamasha, and to find the writing we mentioned on this week’s episode, [music] visit our website grantamasha.com. Tim Martin is our audio engineer. Asen Familii is our executive producer. Additional assistance provided by Andy Rebina. Thanks for listening and see you next week.