A Conversation With Harshil Suvarnkar Aditya Birla Sun Life Amc Ltd Young Manager Series S01e02

TITLE: A Conversation with Harshil Suvarnkar | Aditya Birla Sun Life AMC LTd. | Young Manager Series S01E02 CHANNEL: CFA Society India DATE: 2026-06-24 ---TRANSCRIPT--- This is our second episode of our young manager series. As practitioners in the debt market, we often sometimes get caught up in the daily noise of I would say yield curves and macros. And so today what we are trying at least is to step away step away and focus on something which is more fundamental in the sense of journey, the philosophy and hard earned lessons of managing money which you have gained over a period of time. So joining me is Harshal and fund manager Aditya Birla Sun Life AMC. Harshal brings a highly unique dual sided perspective to the table after passing out from JPIMS with a masters in finance and diploma in securities law. He spent a decade on the asset liability management side at a major housing finance company in the treasury of a major housing finance company. Today I think he sits on the asset side on the buy side managing fixed income portfolios. And I as I if I’m not wrong he’s also recently expanded his mandate to towards equity. So over the next hour our attempt is to dive into your journey, investment philosophy, how the background has shaped you, the unconventional data points that drive you or your investment philosophy and his thoughts on general I would say and your thoughts on how AI and other things are impacting our our investment. And and at the end of it we’ll try to have some some takeaways for our young CFA charter holders. Right. So Harshal it’s an absolute pleasure and welcome to the series. So yeah, so I think Harshal I’ll just begin from the very beginning. So growing up and eventually moving through JPIMS and securing a degree in finance. uh How did your first uh interest in finance take to root in the sense that was it something growing up or was it something at JBIMS? So, I mean most of the people and and just to follow up to that is that most of the young students normally get kept captivated by the equity markets, right? That’s the noise which we hear the most. How did you eventually end up or how did you decided that you join or got attracted towards a more mathematically rigorous fixed income fixed income side of the world? Yeah, over to you.

Yeah, yes it is. So, you know, while my graduation happened at Sydenham College, which is also coincidentally in in South Bombay, you know, over there, you know, I did my bachelor’s in commerce. But you know, even during my graduation journey, you know, as a young person, [clears throat] I used to manage my household banking and you know, help my father at that time with the investments piece. So, my my bent was always towards finance. Of course, you know, investments as a field came in later. But you know, as a as a personality, you know, I’ve always wanted to learn new things and you know, keep learning wide variety of things. So, you know, while I was doing my graduation, I did I played my hand with event management where you know, honed some technical skills on lighting etc. and you know, did some large scale events. Even during graduation, I did my, you know, advanced diploma in foreign trade. So, you know, it exposed me to trade and you know, lot more nuances about, you know, the financial system etc. Um from a uh perspective of why investing and finance is basically, you know, I the the it gels with my personality is because you know I like to learn a lot of things. And you know once I got into my post graduation which is my MBA where I got exposed you know to a lot of things where you know I understood that you know investing is one thing where you know you start keep learning right it’s it’s a you never end the learning phase and you know you will need to know about a wide variety of things in order to take a right decision of where to invest, what to invest and you know from asset allocation or micro perspective. So it involves it’s like a multi-faceted approach you know that’s that’s what shaped it and then of course you know I did my internship at HSBC where I was responsible for making the pure review model where you know we compared a lot of metrics so I learned about the banking sector and you know I presented to the entire batch and then of course my model that I used you know even after 5-7 years I got a call from HSBC that you know he can you send us that model you know if we need that urgently to you know compare our performance with other banks. So you know but but the point was that you know that you know going deeper into banking sector it just instilled or ingrained further in my mind that you know finance is something that you know I want to do and want to go ahead with that and given that this sector etc. you know I thought that investing would be the or you know corporate finance kind of a structure would be the right one to invest where I decided that you know go ahead with finance and something in investing. Okay. Okay. Uh so just to maybe take that forward I think you spent almost a decade on the in the treasury on the ALM and even I think capital market borrowing side at an housing finance company and that’s where we we first came in touch so uh how did you how How starting your career at a at on the maybe a liability side if I’m and then there is a lot of asset investments also involved but to a certain extent it’s more liability focused and more fundraising side of it. And that how did shape the way now you look at the asset and investing side? How did it kind of helped you or maybe something you have to unlearn and relearn what what while starting to manage money? Asset side. Yeah, so one was you know the better part was that you know in where I worked which basically you know we had borrowings and investments as a function was was together. So you know interestingly but you know earlier it was not together when I joined and when I started the borrowing program you know we used to just get report of where the investment is etc. And you know one day I started to analyze and you know just give optimum way of investing things much better than the way it was being done. And you know suddenly the management decided that you know you are you can basically do a good job that’s where they merged both functions and they gave it to us. So you know that coincidentally happened where we started managing investments also. So the good part is if you do borrowing and investments you interact on the buy side, you interact on the sell side and you interact with the other intermediaries law firms etc. also. So you know that’s where the the interaction goes so you know you kind of a have an experience of what happens in the buy side also because the buy side also services you. So you know especially as an AMC you know I would advise some investors or you know keep telling us to what should be done what what should not be done. So you know I got that exposure also. Plus when you’re borrowing of course you need to be aware of the market and where the rates are so you know you get that added batch also. So you know that is the other piece and then on the borrowing side given that you such a large treasury you need to hedge it using interest rate derivatives interest rate swaps you basically you given that a housing finance company lends on a floating rate basis you know you borrow on fixed rate, so converting fixed to floating and how to do that is also quite nuanced on the OIS market. So, you know, I’m sure you you know that in the ALM side, so you know, we keep kept kept doing that also. So, you know, that also gave me a lot of exposure on how to manage interest rate risk. So, and then, you know, once I transitioned, you know, you know, once I interviewed over here and then got transitioned, it was a very smooth transition. Because, you know, I managed the asset side also, right? Where I could take calls of investing on a shorter tenor or, you know, go towards a longer tenor in debt. And which curve where to select and where to borrow is So, that already helped. And so, you analyze your the the sector well and you know, even that a large part of your investments go also into NBFC and HFC, that gives you an added connect and you know, you also know more issuers, so you know, that helped me. So, the transition was smooth, but you know, of course, then you come to know about, you know, how do you put your framework when you are investing? So, you know, all of the things that I learned over there, you put it in a framework, you put it yourself over here. And then start doing things, you know, even more granularly than what you were doing, because you were exposed to both sides. Now, you only have a buy side. Yeah. Now, let’s more dive more into your investment philosophy. So, so when we look at the fixed income investing largely, I think the the few standard variables which all of us look at, like the duration or the credit quality and the yield curve. So, beyond all these consensus metrics, is there any any What are the those underlying uh factors or unconventional data points which you think the larger market or most of the market participants miss out and but it it it has played an important part in your journey or something which you look at and uh very keenly while the overall broader market sometimes misses out. So yeah, so overall broader market, you know, generally people look at in the fixed income market duration means that, you know, you rather increase your duration or not, but you know, fixed income is pretty much nuanced in that sense that, you know, you need to be able to select the right curve, right point. Uh because duration is like a form of convex macro risk and you know, it’s not merely a hedge. You know, the payoff will depend upon, you know, where you are positioned, how you’re positioned, how your inflation, fiscal liquidity call goes. So from that perspective, you know, analyzing macro and micro together. So you know, like Charlie Munger says that, you know, you need to have a lattice framework basically where you lay top two three things on top of each other and then decide of where to do. So uh more important is take get the micro call right. Plus the micro call. You know, when I say micro, because, you know, fixed income market is very demand supply driven. You know, you can have the elephant in the room which is Reserve Bank being buying or selling. You know, that can lead to seeing because Reserve Bank buying and selling will also depend on external factors like liquidity. So get that demand supply right, you know, or you know, how a state fiscal will perform, you know, or even within a state, you know, you might be caught in a soup because, you know, if let’s say populism comes in that state, you know, and then they start borrowing largely, then you will not be able to sell your stock also, plus you’ll have a 10 basis points loss on the spread. So that that’s very important basically to catch things on a nuance on a micro level where you know of what you’re buying, how is demand supply going to get affected over there. And of course, selecting the right curve because, you know, a a strategy versus having So let’s say you do a one and 10 year barbell versus a plain three to five year kind of a bond piece, you know, that can define winner or loser between you and the competition because that’s how the curve may perform because the 10 year might perform, five year might not perform. So that’s that’s where I think getting the calls right is is very important and given in today’s time also, you know, you have kind of opportunities that evolve, you know, you know how Trump tweets and you know how macro is changing. So you know, knowing what is under pricing over pricing, especially on the overnight index swaps, you know, that helps you, you know, get that alpha return for investors. [snorts] So I think so basically you need to align multiple lenses together and then think through that one lens which transpires into your strategy basically. How much do you think from a the India macro investor, how much do you think the global macros are impacting India? And how much from a correlation perspective? So they may impact sometimes quite heavily, but you look at it, are we increasing are we not increasingly? I think our we are domestically oriented country and are the domestic factors predominantly what defines our your investment style on fixed income markets or is the is global or or increasingly the global markets are the ones who rule the rule the movements in the market? What what’s your sense? So given the the lesser dependence of us on FPIs, especially in fixed income markets, you know, the global markets of course do make a play. Domestic markets are important, but for India as a whole, oil and your currency is the two ruling pieces, right? You know, basically uh if oil prices rise, given that you’re such a large importer, such a large appliance, you know, your BOP can be goes for a toss. And if your BOP goes for a toss, then you know, you also have a FX problem. And if your FX problem, if RBI is involved and it intervenes, you have a liquidity problem. So, everything is intertwined [clears throat] from a micro-level demand-supply perspective, you may say that it is India only, it is domestic because you will not think of what FPIs will buy or sell. But from a micro call, you know, if oil goes for a toss, then you know, somebody will go and take a micro call on the OS market, and that’s why your market will start selling off there. People will lose confidence. So, uh you will look at India from a micro perspective, but macro perspective, you will look at global. Because oil and currency are the two most important things that you need to get right for fixed income. Yeah, fair enough. And I think I think we have had this oil dividend for a long time, at least I think for a decade now, uh which is now I think reversing. So, obviously we’ll have that uh impact of external impact will play a major role. Uh so, yeah. A very, very well-articulated answer. Uh now, over to I think you’re now you are you’re actually uh started managing equity funds. Uh so, so expanding beyond your fixed income roots. Uh uh So, I just want to to to then first of all, congrats on that. And so, my my idea is basically to ask is there anything on from your fixed income experience which helps you differently than what an equity fund manager would look at uh in for on an equity side? Uh has your experience now helping you to manage equity? Uh how what is that uniquely different lens which you which you bring to the table? So so the the best piece about doing equity and fixed income is that fixed income requires a lot of macro. Yeah. And if you put that macro framework to equity also, you know, you can create your own strategy. So uh when I started managing equity with my colleague, you know, over there, you know, the the philosophy has been bottom-up and top-down both. So, you know, that brings, you know, a a better change because in terms of macro you have a larger hold on what your GDP, fiscal, uh liquidity, all of these things will transpire because, you know, you also know how your banking margins will go up or go down because you track borrowings, you track your rates. So, you know, rates are very important because the single most important factor which defines your DCF plus or down is your discounting factor and, you know, if you get the discounting factor right also, you get your half the game is won. So, uh we do a top-down. So, you know, from a top-down perspective, you know, look at macro and then, you know, you arrive at a sectoral call as to which sector will do well. So, you know, if you feel that interest rates are doing well, capex cycle is doing well, how is the commodity cycle going on? So, you that helps you get a good hold on, you know, where your uh sector call will be. Within that sector, then, of course, you need to do a primary analysis in terms of which company do you do you go for? Um uh now, if you have worked in fixed income, you know, you also get kind of a credit color and, you know, you would have interacted with management so over there which are a part of your universe in fixed income which helps you, you know, analyze things uh well among those companies and then, of course, you select the company. So, it’s like a bottom-up and a top-down approach. And then the macro call also helps you take a equity overweight or underweight call given that it’s a hybrid fund. And that’s where you can generate that alpha. And lastly, uh because you know fixed income and your macro and then you also know equity, you can take a very well-informed call on REITs and InvITs because that’s an emerging asset class. And then, you know, you you generate that alpha, you know, by doing overweight underweight in that So, it kind of classically fits everything together and that, you know, makes your framework for investing in equity. Very interesting idea. I especially the last point I had not thought about, yeah. But that’s a that’s a fair fair point. And that is asset class very close to fixed income. Uh gets classified as equity, but yeah. Uh yeah, fair enough. Fair enough, I think. Uh So, uh now I think this question I’m asking everyone, how how are the the quant and systematic side of the world getting introduced in the fixed income uh fixed income strategies? How are you guys uh using it? Uh So, I’ll come to AI later. So, my first question first layer of the question is more towards quant and systematic and then we’ll we’ll probably uh cover AI later. How are you using that because I think that is a the uh hot topic of the day, but yeah. The first question and foremost, how much of So, so fixed income in any case is data driven, but how are you doing are you doing certain quantitative strategies or it’s more uh I would say still largely driven as as at least that’s what I know of the market is that it’s more largely driven still by humans, but uh in but unlike equities where a a of execution has still shifted towards systematic transactions, but still anything which you want to share with us on the bond side, anything you guys are doing or something which a young fund manager should maybe look to learn as growing as as it grows up in the industry. Right. So, it’s a very interesting piece. So, again in Indian fixed income market, we are primarily an OTC market. So, from an execution perspective, it’s very difficult to get an AI or a quant model to be able to execute things. Now, where do we use quant in fixed income is basically we can use multiple regression techniques. Of let’s say if you want to define a sensitivity. Now, you and me know that you know oil at 100 is a risk to you know yields. Now, but your yields have already moved higher. So, whether they have moved higher or not, whether you want to see from a past perspective, then you run a regression or you know a coefficient of you know how important is that. So, what we’ve tried to do is that we tried to build a multiple regression model of you know various factors which we discussed like your GDP, fiscal, etc. We did a lot of kind of iterations between each of these factors assigning and then you know try to find what is the correlation between each one of these. And then we you know plugged in it to to get a result of what should be the yield if this moves by this much. Because having a single variable is not going to help you. Having multiple variables will help us. So, you try to build something like that and you know basically get an answer. But, can we rely on that? No, of course we can’t rely on that. We can use that as a tool in your decision making. So, today let’s say if you feel and you take a call that you want to overweight and rates have sold off higher, then maybe you can uh take think of it as basically using that as a mirror and seeing that what has happened in the past, does it say the same thing or not and be able to analyze that. You know, uh uh interesting thing basically, you know, if you run something on Claude or, you know, something on the advanced models on on quant, you can ask that, you know, what is the sensitivity of Nifty to oil? Or what is the sensitivity of your 10-year G set to oil? And then, you know, you define a period for it which is and define an exclusion period, maybe something like a COVID where oil went to negative, you’d want to remove all of those noise from the data. [snorts] And if you do that, then you also you’ll get a significantly better that, you know, what every $10 rise in oil means that, you know, 2 and 1/2% equity will get sold off or something like that or from a Yeah, yeah. perspective, in the past, you know, if you’ve seen like a 1988 or something like in 2013 wherever oil has went higher, you know, what has been the impact on yields? Yields have went up by 50 base points. So, you know, um and we can think of that in terms of, you know, a Bayesian thinking, right? You know, uh that, you know, how do you think about your past basically, which is your priors, and then arrive at, you know, what you’re predicting as a future? Right. So, you basically it all of these things, at least on the quant side, help you refine your decision-making process. They are to be used as an aids in decision-making process and I think that, you know, given that you have a lot more structured data now and uh lot more availability of, you know, uh open data, you [snorts] can use all of these tools to be able to take a better decision. And maybe if you don’t use that, somebody else uses that, you know, he will be able to uh take uh or win the game. So, you know, it’s better that we all, you know, accept and, you you start using these tools uh that we have. Right, right, right. Compare, I think uh a lot of uh I think this this kind of work was I think uh heavily shouldered by the economist which we have at various firms. I think increasingly I think everybody manages money or whatever from a trading or investment perspective has to do bit of it on You’re right. I think it will And because it has become increasingly easier also with the tools available. So, I don’t think there is a choice now. So, you’re right. I think I agree with you completely. And now I think just a maybe I think you’ve already covered it, but uh AI I think you’ve already covered it. Anything more you want to add on the AI perspective? Anything? Uh do you do you think uh one a young fund manager or a young analyst needs to be an AI native uh for now or in to grow in the industry now or is there anything I think there obviously there are other skills which are very important, but uh is is an AI skill which you look at when you recruit at your firm or you you add the young fund young analyst uh in your team? Uh is it something which you look at or you uh is it something which is very important? Uh what’s your view? Yeah, so I think AI uh is of course shaping the way we look at things, uh but more so you know, I just wanted to give you a a little view of how we look at AI, you know, um maybe AI is just a learning language model, right? So, if you uh it is giving you uh what is the next best token or the word basis a probability that it will derive from whatever data is available on the internet. So, let’s say you know, if I had to give you a sentence that is the best investors think long term and ignore. And then I ask AI what should be the next word? So most probably the next word will be short term. It will not think or resonate. It will just go to all its data sets and come out with what is the most probable word and give you short term. This is the most important learning in AI that it is just a learning language model. The limitation comes in AI in terms of numbers. So you know, if you ask it maybe a question like you know, what is 178 into 13? So it will not resonate what is 178 into 13. It will go and search what is the next number that it is searched on 178 into 13 in the internet. Somewhere some tables would have come and it will pick it up from there. So applying logic to numbers is not AI’s problem. So if you understand this and if you put it at what AI good at and what is AI weak at. So AI is very good at pattern completion, analogy, summary, context retrieval. What will be weak at, you know, very precise arithmetic, spatial reasoning, you know, that kind of things it will be weak at. Or maybe counting characters. [snorts] So now how do you use this is basically Now if you look at how the evolution of you know, artificial intelligence or you know, computer assisted things have been. So earlier when you know, chess was there, you know, chess used to be played. So you know, players used to be able to beat chess. Uh the computer at playing chess. Then at finally what happened is that uh uh you know, we could not beat the computer. Now what is it being used at? It is being used to train the new people who come in chess, you know, to be able to play better and you know, improve their game. So [snorts] similarly what you can we and you because neither you or me or humans don’t have the the of assimilation capacity that it might have. Of course, our thinking and reasoning might be better. But, you know, if it can assimilate so much of data in so much less of time, you use it in that way. So, what we use AI at least internally is for, you know, basically finding inferences or being able to make things connect better wherever language is [clears throat] to be used. But, for numbers we don’t use AI. Of course, you know, we have AI and machine learning specialist. Uh we’ve developed some tools internally for AI within the company also, where we put in our internal research and, you know, uh tell about, you know, how whatever data comes or whatever decisions are right and how they can influence the future. But, you know, from a overall perspective, we cannot use AI for numbers. And then from a analyst or, you know, young person’s perspective, it’s very important to embrace these tools and to learn to use them rightly. Just don’t use them as Google. Learn to basically prompt properly, prompt engineering. So, if we do all of that, I think that AI can be used as a tool with us to be able to work better. Otherwise, somebody [snorts] might be able to use that tool better. No, I think so. I think sometimes at least what I feel is there’s a lot of negativity around AI in the sense that people will forget to do thinking on their own. And my normally what I think is see, internet also came in and it kind of improved what what we do, right? It’s an efficiency tool. Probably it will be for the better. At least that’s what I feel. Let’s see. Yeah, of course. So, every every new enhancement has only helped us. Maybe we start Yeah, so I think there’s just too much negativity which I feel is unwarranted. So, again, so now let’s get back to your journey. So So I think you have now almost uh more than a decade of journey in in financial markets. Uh Uh even longer than that, I think 15 15 years of plus, right? 16 years. 16 years, yeah. So So the So So So markets, as we know, are the fixed income markets are very unforgiving. Uh it’s not like uh where it’s not the I don’t think it’s the right way to look at it, but equity is at least at the end of the day it’s a nominal index. So at a portfolio level, they are uh the the there are probability of it going up more than it going down, but our markets have don’t have any uh any such tendencies which you can play on. Uh so uh so and there are credit events which which are which are even uh I think you’ll be it’s zero kind of thing. So So any anything you want to share in terms of your mistakes or misjudgment which you did in in the early part of your career. Uh perhaps during a liquidity squeeze or something like that which kind of ingrained in you certain learnings and which you probably want to share with our uh with our members, young or old. Learnings are uh basically if any wisdom you think which you learned from your mistakes. If you made any, so that that that that that that No, so I didn’t call it a mistake. So in 2013, you know, it’s about 3 years into my career in investing, we had a we know at that time rates were lower, you know, we figured out the inflation was going higher and you know uh BOP current was an issue. RBI then raised rates by 320 base points. You know, at that point, you know, uh out of 100% portfolio, we exited 60% and you know had the call then maybe you know in hindsight maybe you should have reduced the duration. So, let’s say if you get something right and if you have conviction then you know you should take the call fully and you know you should not take [clears throat] it half-heartedly something what I understood. But you know of course you know with the support of you know the management at that point in time and you know my my my boss you know he helped me you know learn that you know how you should also exit position on that day you know I called him at 8:00 in the morning like you know it’s going to be a frenzy. So, you know at 9:01 then he’s like you know go ahead you sell you don’t worry. So, you know you’ve made profits so you know small loss is not going to make a difference so but then of course you as humans we have loss aversion right? So, you know from a loss aversion perspective you know you don’t like to sell something even if you’ve seen that it’s an opportunity loss that you could have made that profit. I think that’s a learning that you need to have conviction go ahead with the call. Avoid loss aversion you know you know I like behavioral economics so you know I did something in I am in the one in flame and I keep reading a lot. So, you know it’s very important from an investment perspective to be aware of your own biases what biases exist and to work on it you know in the end you know investing is all about knowing yourself much better and to be able to take much more better decision. So, I think that’s what I’ve learned and that’s what I keep learning even today in terms of what one should do to avoid your own biases and be as neutral as possible. I think that yeah 2013 brings in it so we used to call it helmet time so I think every every morning we used to we used to go with helmets to office yeah that’s that’s the that was the it was a very difficult time yeah I agree. So, so from from the just to maybe add on it. Uh, so I mean, you let’s let’s now I would probably look to maybe from a continuous learning perspective, right? Uh, this is that that’s the whole and sole of fund management as a profession, right? You have to be continuously learning. So, what are the look like I’m was three four books if you want to suggest. I’ll just kind of stepping back to uh, for our young fund managers, or young or old. I think everybody needs it. But, so what have you read recently which you think would have profoundly impacted or is something which you which a young analyst should read? Uh, anything not just related to finance, behavioral, or even history, or anything which which you think it has been interesting. So, I’ll say one instance and you know, from a little bit philosophy and then maybe something on the book, you know. So, one instance it would be I I like skydiving, you know. I used to be a solo skydiver. So, you know, in my initial training times my trainer told me that, you know, are you scared? I’m like, you know, maybe a little bit. He’s like, yeah, that’s good. Because, you know, if you’re not scared while skydiving, you know, you wouldn’t have, you know, checked your backpack and your gear. If you are like free, then you know, you will be because like a frenzy, you know. From that, you know, you connect, you know, with investment also, you know. You know, you need to stress test your assumption. You need to size your positions carefully. You have an exit plan. So, you know, when you take a decision, you also think of, you know, what is the other side. You should know what when to cut losses before jumping, etc. So, that is one thing. And then the second thing, you know, I I widely influenced or maybe you know, I like going to Iscon you know at that time when I was young. So you know there’s God Gopal Das he’s now become very famous you know at that time used to sit with him and take some learning. So you know Bhagavad Gita also teaches you a lot many things you know. So you know in fact the book itself was written in a time of crisis right you know there was a war situation and it teaches you as to how to keep yourself calm and serene you know while a lot of things are going on. And you know and it’s basically nishkam bhava like basically so you you don’t do anything basically without wanting the fruit basically. So I think that investment is a more like a journey that you take rather than you know if you don’t think about the return you think about how to optimize you do your best you do your best and say do your calls and the that will come because if you strive for the the particular number or figure on your return you know that might not translate. It’s very important to focus on the journey and from a investing all about that having that mental peace right you know I think the best investor would be the one who can take the same call during a bear market and a bull market. I’m sure that you know no one exists like that till now you know who can take the same call in a bull or bear because you tend to get biased. But you know I think one should strive to be able to be able to balance that and take a similar call in in both markets. Of course reading is important because you know you start interacting with yourself only at that time you know otherwise all your interactions are with someone so you know you kind of know. So with someone you know he he told me it really struck me very well that you know you should be a player and a coach together. So you know you you play the field and then once you are off the battlefield you start thinking as a coach of what went wrong and what you should do better and how your player should get better at that playing the game. So, you know, that’s that’s a book. From a I think book’s perspective what influences or you know, I think which I have liked is which I think every analyst should read is system one system two thinking Daniel Kahneman thinking fast and thinking slow. So, you know, over there, you know, basically you learn to use when to use system one and when to use system two. Basically, system one is fast, instinctive, emotional. System two is when you are slow, deliberate, and analytical. So, [snorts] for anybody who manages a fund or invest, you know, you should eliminate system one. But, you know, you should build processes that you know, that help you engage system two at at least some of the decision points that you you take. [snorts] The second one is would be a Pulak Prasad, you know, what I learned about investing from Darwin, you know, he very well connects biology with investing and you know, explains as to how we should think about companies, you know, so you should basically look to cut your losses basically and you know, look to invest in growing companies because survival of the fittest, right? So, you know, you invest in good quality companies that’s very important because the fittest will survive and grow. So, similar kind of anecdotes and especially investing his philosophy on ROCE and how you look at it and how do you look at companies ROCE as a single metric also is a is a very good thing. And then lastly, maybe you know, a a little bit more influenced by by Michael Mauboussin. Basically, you know, his book on expectations thinking and I think everybody would have read now, but you know, it’s very important on Bayesian thinking. Because getting an expectation at one point, meaning that if I tell you that, you know, tomorrow crude will be $150. The probability of that going right or wrong is very, very minuscule, right? You know, you can’t have a one-point forecast. You need to think in life also in terms of probabilities. So, you know, think about your priors. Think about what you are saying. What is the probability of the outcome? A probabilistic outcome uh way of approach gives you a lot more better clarity of thinking. And also the conditional probability that, you know, as and when things change, right? Because if you think today of geopolitics in terms of what’s happening in the world or US blockade, and then you get some additional information over and above top of it, then maybe your priors can change, right? So, you know, that’s continuously doing that only helps you get better or maybe book your profits or, you know, cut your losses well in advance at any point in time if you know your priors and how your conditional probabilities keep changing. So, if you think in life also of a similar way, you know, it’s it’s very important from a decision-making perspective and just helps you. And lastly, I think this book, you know, I think my earlier boss over here, Manish Dangi, was the CIO. You know, he’s written a very good book, Booms Busts and Market Cycles. So, his philosophical frameworks of, you know, they’re more from India tradition and gives you he’s also of course written on probabilistic thinking. Uh and, you know, investing is always much about understanding oneself, which is also what he writes about. Uh so, I think that book is also very good book if uh someone wants to read that. Great, great. I think you have actually taken away a of my questions. Because my next question would have been about mental models and habits and behavioral, but yeah, I think you have covered a lot. We could we can we could have continued the discussion even further, I think. So, one last question I think I probably end that is that how does your how does your does your typical day look like? Is there anything apart from work which which you do to keep yourself I would say mentally or physically ready? Is there anything which do or is it because it’s tough tough I would say profession and unforgiving one at that. What what do you apart from work what how does it how does your day look like and just wanted to pick your brain on that. Yeah. So, apart from work you know lately I’ve got a little bit bug on you know medicine and you know functional medicine functional nutrition. So, I keep reading on that. So, on longevity especially. So, I like reading and helping people on that. So, I a little bit of time gets occupied over there. So, [snorts] before work you know you try and catch up on what’s happening in the world and you know spend at least an hour of knowing before market starts as to what what what things can happen. How is things being so you keep reading on that. So, you of course read from sell side you read news and you know how is market moved you try and analyze that. Then you know post work also you know a little bit of reading time goes on the way so on the way to office and to go going back you know read something of whatever you are reading or something that you caught at work or some note or maybe a some memo note something that you want to read on me. That’s where my time goes. Then maybe about a half an hour 45 minutes to fitness, something that I want to do, walk or gym. [snorts] And then we just spend time with family and just before sleeping, you know, again about 30-45 minutes of reading every day. I think that’s that’s very important. So reading is something that has no substitute and you know, it kind of is a compounding factor, right? Because somebody who’s written that would have written that with let’s say Manish has written that book, you know, he’s written that with 25 years of experience. He’s giving you 25 years in 400 pages, you know, so why don’t you consume it and you know, you compound yourself and get better. And at that time, of course, you scan internalize on your own thoughts. So that’s that’s I think very important. And lastly, I think social media distraction is what I avoid. So you know, I don’t not there on social media. Or just first we need to be on Twitter to know things. So you know, on Twitter also, you know, there’s a feature of you know, what you can follow and you know, what they show you. So I think I want those prompts. YouTube recommendations, all of that. So whatever you want to see is what you see, not what they want to see make you see. So because then that makes you biased. So that’s that’s that’s what I’ve trying to follow and I think it’s very important for everyone also because social media tends to show you what you want to see or it builds on your your own view. It doesn’t show you the opposite view. So yeah, that’s that’s the practice that I follow regularly. Well, I think that’s a good note to end our conversation. I think would have I would have ideally like to have a and more discussion with you. It’s I think to hear from you. Thank you. Thank you to Harshal for doing this. It was a wonderful conversation. I am sure that a lot of these insights will help our our listeners and our our readers. So, thank you. Thank you for taking time out. Uh let’s keep in touch. Yeah, so Thank you. Thank you.